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World Rugby politics

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 22:54

I don't. And many have the same perception. Sport is part of society, not another planet. And sports did a LOT in the past for society stepping up for many causes. When the game starts, it is all about the game anyway. If the pre-game annoys, go to the kitchen grab a beer ;)

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 23:15

Sports fans (theoretically) willing sports to be a politics free zone is a political statement by itself, it means they want statu quo and change being seeks through something as precious for so many people as sport.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 01:18

Of course. Which realy sound strange. Every single sports rivalry - club vs club, province vs province, country vs country - is loaded with some sort of politics, soft or heavy (either historical differences or present differences). I'm pretty sure people like Barcelona vs Real Madrid, Celtic vs Rangers, Springboks vs All Blacks, Scotland vs England, USA vs USSR, etc etc, and the historical political background of those rivalries basicaly make them even more valuable. Even rivalries that look like simply geographical (Stormers vs Bulls, Crusaders vs Highlanders, NSW vs Queensland, Toulouse vs Stade Français, etc etc) aren't realy just about "we live in different places". They mean much more. Sports fans love rivalries, therefore they accept (and love) politics in sport. Some just don't see or admit.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 02:48

victorsra wrote:Of course. Which realy sound strange. Every single sports rivalry - club vs club, province vs province, country vs country - is loaded with some sort of politics, soft or heavy (either historical differences or present differences). I'm pretty sure people like Barcelona vs Real Madrid, Celtic vs Rangers, Springboks vs All Blacks, Scotland vs England, USA vs USSR, etc etc, and the historical political background of those rivalries basicaly make them even more valuable. Even rivalries that look like simply geographical (Stormers vs Bulls, Crusaders vs Highlanders, NSW vs Queensland, Toulouse vs Stade Français, etc etc) aren't realy just about "we live in different places". They mean much more. Sports fans love rivalries, therefore they accept (and love) politics in sport. Some just don't see or admit.


This is where there is a difference between rugby and football, and why I love rugby. Football can take these rivalries too far and too seriously. England vs Scotland, or Rangers vs Celtic can be hateful and the atmosphere can be unpleasant. It can bring out an ugly tribalism which can even lead to violence, and the cycle of hatred is perpetuated. In rugby the rivalry is there but above that is a dignity and a decency. A shared love of the sport and of decency. That is something we teach our children. If they become too rowdy and tribal we tell them to tone it down and be respectful. Unless it's Bristol Bears fans at Bath. They just let their youths act like a bunch of uncouth football louts. But that's because they are uncultured yobs who probably weren't raised right themselves.
I don't actually know if rugby is a particularly respectful sport or if football is just really bad. It might be the latter.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 03:54

All rugby rivalries have some political aspect too. Anything in society is political. Including rugby's ethos.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 04:03

Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 07:00

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Unless it's Bristol Bears fans at Bath. They just let their youths act like a bunch of uncouth football louts. But that's because they are uncultured yobs who probably weren't raised right themselves.


And here my friend I present to you: Politics. That's your opinion. I doubt fans in the most succesful pro-league, the Top14, would concur with you.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 07:31

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Unless it's Bristol Bears fans at Bath. They just let their youths act like a bunch of uncouth football louts. But that's because they are uncultured yobs who probably weren't raised right themselves.


And here my friend I present to you: Politics. That's your opinion. I doubt fans in the most succesful pro-league, the Top14, would concur with you.


Every club has a club they hate (probably too strong a word, but whatever is the opposite of love). And every group includes idiots (even this forum) :D

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 07:42

victorsra wrote:Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...


That's actually an interesting take. I've never seen it that way, but yeah you are indeed right. Rugby is probably the most political sport (or a close second to another Commonwealth sport).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 09:17

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...


That's actually an interesting take. I've never seen it that way, but yeah you are indeed right. Rugby is probably the most political sport (or a close second to another Commonwealth sport).


How would you define that? I think it would be something like different interests and ideologies pulling in different directions, hindering the development of the sport. The fact that rugby is split into two different sports is an indication that rugby is the most political sport ever. Handball could be the opposite. Different sports coming together and comprising to make a successful unified International sport.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 09:49

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...


That's actually an interesting take. I've never seen it that way, but yeah you are indeed right. Rugby is probably the most political sport (or a close second to another Commonwealth sport).


How would you define that? I think it would be something like different interests and ideologies pulling in different directions, hindering the development of the sport. The fact that rugby is split into two different sports is an indication that rugby is the most political sport ever. Handball could be the opposite. Different sports coming together and comprising to make a successful unified International sport.


It is not wrong what you say, but I would even take one step back, as what you wrote is only sports politics.
British administered sport were always organized on building connections betwenn likewise people not open competition like all the other global sports. That's a huge political thing to do. Keep an Empire together with sport is nothing but politics.
The 6N is massively political. Not even an open route and force this through to youth and women's sport. Think about it. You heard your whole life, other teams are not good enough, they will get injured in a scrum etc.. That might be partly true, but that's also political manipulation by implementing a superiority complex. We are better than the rest, without even playing them. It doesn't get more political than that. You could see this for 100 years with the amateur rules as well.

There is no such thing with FIFA. FIFA even tries, where it is possible and there is a chance people won't kill each other over it, that arch enemies play each other1.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 10:23

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...


That's actually an interesting take. I've never seen it that way, but yeah you are indeed right. Rugby is probably the most political sport (or a close second to another Commonwealth sport).


How would you define that? I think it would be something like different interests and ideologies pulling in different directions, hindering the development of the sport. The fact that rugby is split into two different sports is an indication that rugby is the most political sport ever. Handball could be the opposite. Different sports coming together and comprising to make a successful unified International sport.


It is not wrong what you say, but I would even take one step back, as what you wrote is only sports politics.
British administered sport were always organized on building connections betwenn likewise people not open competition like all the other global sports. That's a huge political thing to do. Keep an Empire together with sport is nothing but politics.
The 6N is massively political. Not even an open route and force this through to youth and women's sport. Think about it. You heard your whole life, other teams are not good enough, they will get injured in a scrum etc.. That might be partly true, but that's also political manipulation by implementing a superiority complex. We are better than the rest, without even playing them. It doesn't get more political than that. You could see this for 100 years with the amateur rules as well.

There is no such thing with FIFA. FIFA even tries, where it is possible and there is a chance people won't kill each other over it, that arch enemies play each other1.


I would even take it a step further. It is a tool in maintaining a stratified society. Someone pointed out on another thread, there are similar numbers of rugby clubs and basketball clubs across the country. But no one is getting rich and famous in England playing basketball which is a sport for poor kids. Even post-amateurism I don't think there are very many professional rugby players from working class English backgrounds. I don't know of any. There are a lot of top English rugby players from very privileged backgrounds, most of them.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Thomas » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 10:31

You could say the same thing about Mexico and Central America, dominated by the Middle Classes and the privileged background. very few from the working class and poor backgrounds.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 10:41

I can't recommend Tony Collins' brilliant podcast Rugby Reloaded enough, if you want to learn about that from a historian. He comes from a rugby league background, but does a lot of historical pieces about Rugby Union as well. I actually listened to all of his podcast episodes.

A short article about the composition of English national teams.
http://www.tony-collins.org/rugbyreload ... lass-sport
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 15:02

Collins works a lot with connections between football codes. He sees football as a broad concept, which is very useful to understand sports history.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 11:43

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Btw, all the 100 years Rugby Union's fight against professionalism (that was much more anti-professionalism than pro-amateurism, as shamateurism suggests), that still goes on in some contexts, wasn't purely politics? The persecution against people that player Rugby League and etc. If there is one political sport is rugby...


That's actually an interesting take. I've never seen it that way, but yeah you are indeed right. Rugby is probably the most political sport (or a close second to another Commonwealth sport).


How would you define that? I think it would be something like different interests and ideologies pulling in different directions, hindering the development of the sport. The fact that rugby is split into two different sports is an indication that rugby is the most political sport ever. Handball could be the opposite. Different sports coming together and comprising to make a successful unified International sport.


It is not wrong what you say, but I would even take one step back, as what you wrote is only sports politics.
British administered sport were always organized on building connections betwenn likewise people not open competition like all the other global sports. That's a huge political thing to do. Keep an Empire together with sport is nothing but politics.
The 6N is massively political. Not even an open route and force this through to youth and women's sport. Think about it. You heard your whole life, other teams are not good enough, they will get injured in a scrum etc.. That might be partly true, but that's also political manipulation by implementing a superiority complex. We are better than the rest, without even playing them. It doesn't get more political than that. You could see this for 100 years with the amateur rules as well.

There is no such thing with FIFA. FIFA even tries, where it is possible and there is a chance people won't kill each other over it, that arch enemies play each other1.


I would even take it a step further. It is a tool in maintaining a stratified society. Someone pointed out on another thread, there are similar numbers of rugby clubs and basketball clubs across the country. But no one is getting rich and famous in England playing basketball which is a sport for poor kids. Even post-amateurism [b]I don't think there are very many professional rugby players from working class English backgrounds. I don't know of any.[/b] There are a lot of top English rugby players from very privileged backgrounds, most of them.


From England's world cup squad as an example:

Genge, Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Sinckler, Lawes, Ludlam, Wilson, Spencer, May, Nowell.

The sons of pro players is a debatable one, so excluded Vunipola's and Tuilagi. What class to put Cockasinga in is difficult as he grew up as the son of a Fijian solider serving principally in Germany & Brunei.

Ref Collins article overall I agree but schools are a poor proxy, for instance Genge, Sinckler, Ludlam and May all attended fee paying schools on full scholarships and were recruited for their rugby. On this basis most pro footballers coming through go to "fee paying schools" now too, every child at Man U & Man C now goes to private school on a scholarship for instance. His stat on the proportion of people who go to a private school is also wrong (or rather not expressed in a comparable way; 7% of the school population from 4 to 18 is currently at a private fee paying school, a proportion that stays remarkably stable over time, but most fee paying schools start at 11 or 13, by the time you get to A levels it is 25% of pupils as more people go to them as they get older and others drop out from state education. Overall c.15% of people in England go to a private school at some point in their lives).

English rugby definitely has a class problem but it is harder to quantify than people make out.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 11:51

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I would even take it a step further. It is a tool in maintaining a stratified society. Someone pointed out on another thread, there are similar numbers of rugby clubs and basketball clubs across the country. But no one is getting rich and famous in England playing basketball which is a sport for poor kids. Even post-amateurism I don't think there are very many professional rugby players from working class English backgrounds. I don't know of any. There are a lot of top English rugby players from very privileged backgrounds, most of them.


This is what’s bugged me with rugby, that the sport has never tried to appeal to working class folks. I can understand to some extent prior to the game going professional, but there’s no excuse in my mind why over the last 25 years for the sport to have remained as insular as it still is.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 14:10

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:I would even take it a step further. It is a tool in maintaining a stratified society. Someone pointed out on another thread, there are similar numbers of rugby clubs and basketball clubs across the country. But no one is getting rich and famous in England playing basketball which is a sport for poor kids. Even post-amateurism I don't think there are very many professional rugby players from working class English backgrounds. I don't know of any. There are a lot of top English rugby players from very privileged backgrounds, most of them.


This is what’s bugged me with rugby, that the sport has never tried to appeal to working class folks. I can understand to some extent prior to the game going professional, but there’s no excuse in my mind why over the last 25 years for the sport to have remained as insular as it still is.


Yes it is kind of annoying in a way, but being seen as aspirational/elitist probably also makes rugby appealing in class-conscious Britain.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 09:48

Maybe I'm just an old grumbler but I don't like so much the new wave of the World Rugby communication style. After the election, I suppose to show that they are leaning to the base as Pichot promised to be, the various WR social media have become more interactive with the fans, more rich of minor news, more careful to women rugby and T2/T3 nations. I'm not sure to agree it; I like that World Rugby is an institution, a solid point of reference, they should offer just the main news and infos, in my opinion, letting the minor news, the curios statistics ("the 10 most surprising comebacks of the history"...) and the jokes to us fans

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 14:03

Apart from institutional news and news about their own tournaments, I think WR media should focus on doing what general rugby media doesn't do, which is provide solid information about sevens, women's and T2s. They do that, but specifically about T2s not in the needed way.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 15:53

World Rugby must promote the sport. Sharing footage of old matches on social media is part of that.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 16:34

True, specialy when they own the rights. But I realy think they fail in the communication of international T2 rugby. It is a mess to follow results and tables in their website. They must learn with FIFA. And quickly split sevens and 15s in the results. It is a nightmare when there is Sevens World Series going on.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 16:49

I like old footages, but that's not the case: those lists of "best comebacks" or "matches that risked to have not played" were just lists.
But it's the recent general approach in the WR media that make me perplexed. I try to explain with an example: if I go to the City Hall because I need an important info I want to find managers and clerks doing their duty and offering solid infos, not funny people making jokes and narrating curios stories. The "small news" could work in a forum like this, not in the website of the main rugby organization. The photomontage of Messi with the jersey of the Pumas could be funny, but it has (in my opinion) to be purposed by some fans page, not by World Rugby social media. This is my feeling, at least. But if this way to purpose infos is working, if it stimulates the attention of the fans, well, it's ok

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Sep 2020, 23:07

Interview with Pichot talking about the future of rugby, global structures, Super Rugby, players welfare and etc


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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 10:29

For those of us who are a little rusty on their Spanish can we get someone to provide a quickly summary of what was said?

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