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World Cup 2021

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 28 May 2020, 10:10

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:I've actually proposed using 32 teams in the past.With all teams in the one division before progressively moving into their respective competition level as they continue through the stricture. And you could do that adding only one extra week. They'd be 80 games in total. Which I think could be quite valuable to all concerned. As you mention there will be some blowouts but the experience and funding will help in particular nations 17-32 develop a lot faster.


For the real World Cup I fear 32 teams are to much atm. But for one round of a cup? Let's bring it on.
What would qualifications for the top32 look like. Certain minimum numbers of teams per continent and then ranking? Would also give more reason for nations like Sri Lanka to play as many 15s games as possible to get a better ranking.


Number 32 ranked team is Kenya. They are really not a bad team. They are big strong guys. If they played South Africa in round one, probably they would lose by 100 points but that doesn't matter. I would not be overly concerned for their safety.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Thu, 28 May 2020, 17:35

32 is too much, 24 is the goal for now.

But I do think 32 teams could play a final phase for the RWC Qualy, with all countries involved. I have a (IMO)pretty cool idea to be played in the B&I Lions period. Let's say, for the 2027 RWC:

2025
RWC Qualy groups - 8 groups of 4 (2 best from each qualify to the RWC, 2 worst from each go to the Repechage):
Home or Away matches!
Americas 1: Argentina, Canada, Brazil, Mexico
Americas 2: USA, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia
Europe 1: France, Italy, Georgia, Belgium
Europe 2: England, Scotland, Russia, Portugal
Europe 3: Ireland, Wales, Spain, Romania
Africa: South Africa, Namibia, Kenya, Zimbabwe
Asia/Oceania 1: New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, South Korea
Asia/Oceania 2: Australia, Japan, Tonga, Hong Kong

2026
Repechage - 24 teams, 16 from the RWC Qualy, 8 from the Continental competitions
Phase1: RWC Qualy 4ths vs 8 Continental bests
Mexico vs Nethelands (Europe)
Colombia vs Germany (by Ranking)
Belgium vs Paraguay (South America)
Portugal vs Malaysia (Asia)
Romania vs Bermuda (North America)
Zimbabwe vs Switzerland (by Ranking)
South Korea vs Uganda (Africa)
Hong Kong vs Papua New Guinea (Oceania)

Phase 2: RWC 3rds vs Winners of Phase 1 (draw by Ranking) - Winners to the RWC
Brazil vs Hong Kong
Chile vs Portugal
Georgia vs Netherlands
Russia vs South Korea
Spain vs Belgium
Kenya vs Romania
Samoa vs Zimbabwe
Tonga vs Germany
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Pedro1 » Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:11

This qualifying format looks great on paper but do you think it is financially feasible(even pre-corona)? A lot of complicated flight journeys for one off games, Brazil x Hong Kong and Romania x Bermuda the most obvious ones.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:40

Pedro1 wrote:This qualifying format looks great on paper but do you think it is financially feasible(even pre-corona)? A lot of complicated flight journeys for one off games, Brazil x Hong Kong and Romania x Bermuda the most obvious ones.


I concur with Pedro. but having Bermuda there also shows, that the proportions of teams are not right in the Americas, which seriously lacks the depth compared to Africa (no Madagascar), Asia (no Sri Lanka i.e.) and even Europe. Also the continental championship kind of stop to serve a purpose.

I think the world cup qualification should stay the same, but if this second cup would ever happen (it probably won't), I would prefer a cup style competition (it won't happen as well because of too many flights needed to be honest).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 May 2020, 14:27

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Pedro1 wrote:This qualifying format looks great on paper but do you think it is financially feasible(even pre-corona)? A lot of complicated flight journeys for one off games, Brazil x Hong Kong and Romania x Bermuda the most obvious ones.


I concur with Pedro. but having Bermuda there also shows, that the proportions of teams are not right in the Americas, which seriously lacks the depth compared to Africa (no Madagascar), Asia (no Sri Lanka i.e.) and even Europe. Also the continental championship kind of stop to serve a purpose.

I think the world cup qualification should stay the same, but if this second cup would ever happen (it probably won't), I would prefer a cup style competition (it won't happen as well because of too many flights needed to be honest).

You haven't understood the format.

Bermuda is a mere detail, it could be any other team. I put them playing 1 match in the Repechage, that has 8 teams from the continental competitons. It could be 6 continents + 2 by ranking. Or 4 continents (Americas unified, Asia and Oceania together), it doesn't change the concept.

Obviously it would need to be WR-funded, as any T2 competition. The main phase would be in the year without the World League (which already has such amount of matches in the 3 divisions project).

The first phase is regional. It is only the Repechage that has more travel than what is usual now. And matches like Brazil vs HK are very likely to happen in the planned World League more often. The only question is if is needs to be home and away or just one leg. The current RWC Repechage aleady makes teams travel like this. Have you forget?
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby jservuk » Fri, 29 May 2020, 20:33

Why does seemingly every thread end up being about various format connotations?

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 May 2020, 21:01

jservuk wrote:Why does seemingly every thread end up being about various format connotations?

It is for fun
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 30 May 2020, 00:35

If it's invitational then qualifying isn't really going to be an issue.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 00:59

WR already rejected the 2021 thing...
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 30 May 2020, 04:26

As I said though they don't have control over it any more than they do the 6 Nations.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Canalina » Sat, 30 May 2020, 06:33

Was not this 2021 Coronavirus World Cup a closed shop plan plotted by Beaumont and his fellows to award the nations which voted him and punish the nations that didn't vote him? And now World Rugby immediately quashed the idea with two skinny lines?
Something doesn't collimate...
Sometime tha anti-British claims of this section seem the anti-Gates claims of Stmky and Mikhalkov in the Virus section: no logical deductions, just belly ideas, but thy gave a lot of satisfaction

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Pedro1 » Sat, 30 May 2020, 10:25

Canalina wrote:Was not this 2021 Coronavirus World Cup a closed shop plan plotted by Beaumont and his fellows to award the nations which voted him and punish the nations that didn't vote him? And now World Rugby immediately quashed the idea with two skinny lines?
Something doesn't collimate...
Sometime tha anti-British claims of this section seem the anti-Gates claims of Stmky and Mikhalkov in the Virus section: no logical deductions, just belly ideas, but thy gave a lot of satisfaction



You are fabricating an argument. I don't remember Beaumont ever really being discussed.
If criticizing Beaumont(which is not the case) or Baron (which is definitely the case) is "anti-british" as you put it, then what do you call proposing a 16 team invitational tournament that favours Canada over Georgia and Uruguay, for example?

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Canalina » Sat, 30 May 2020, 11:06

Well, it's a two pages discussion, you may quite quickly re-read it without remembering or not remembering. If you did that, you would see that Beaumont is called into question as the one who was voted by Canada (and not voted by Georgia and Uruguay) and the one who backed a previous Baron's purpose, this alluding -just alluding- to the fact that all this could be a revenue for Bill's friends and punishment for Bill's enemies. The meager and definitive answer of World Rugby demonstrates that there's nothing behind.
Why Baron mentioned Canada and not Georgia or Uruguay? Maybe it's just a fact of money, the tournament was intended to create revenues for a suffering world rugby economy and maybe he thinks that Canada could be more attractive (both as tv rights and for the stadium spectators) than Georgia and Uruguay. Maybe

This forum is plenty of fancy ideas about new tournaments or new formats of old tournaments. A former RFU Ceo makes the same with the aim to collect money and suddenly he is an idiot. Can you imagine Pineyrua purposing a tournament involving Brazil and Chile and not Tonga and Samoa and be called idiot?

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby GeoRugby » Sat, 30 May 2020, 12:18

Canalina wrote:Well, it's a two pages discussion, you may quite quickly re-read it without remembering or not remembering. If you did that, you would see that Beaumont is called into question as the one who was voted by Canada (and not voted by Georgia and Uruguay) and the one who backed a previous Baron's purpose, this alluding -just alluding- to the fact that all this could be a revenue for Bill's friends and punishment for Bill's enemies. The meager and definitive answer of World Rugby demonstrates that there's nothing behind.
Why Baron mentioned Canada and not Georgia or Uruguay? Maybe it's just a fact of money, the tournament was intended to create revenues for a suffering world rugby economy and maybe he thinks that Canada could be more attractive (both as tv rights and for the stadium spectators) than Georgia and Uruguay. Maybe

This forum is plenty of fancy ideas about new tournaments or new formats of old tournaments. A former RFU Ceo makes the same with the aim to collect money and suddenly he is an idiot. Can you imagine Pineyrua purposing a tournament involving Brazil and Chile and not Tonga and Samoa and be called idiot?


Lets be honest. He knew full well that this idea of his would not be accepted. Its safe to assume that he also knows how different Unions have voted and excluded Georgia and Uruguay on purpose just to be petty, and nothing more. I doubt that he cares about Rugby Canada all that much anyhow.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 15:30

Canalina wrote:Well, it's a two pages discussion, you may quite quickly re-read it without remembering or not remembering. If you did that, you would see that Beaumont is called into question as the one who was voted by Canada (and not voted by Georgia and Uruguay) and the one who backed a previous Baron's purpose, this alluding -just alluding- to the fact that all this could be a revenue for Bill's friends and punishment for Bill's enemies. The meager and definitive answer of World Rugby demonstrates that there's nothing behind.
Why Baron mentioned Canada and not Georgia or Uruguay? Maybe it's just a fact of money, the tournament was intended to create revenues for a suffering world rugby economy and maybe he thinks that Canada could be more attractive (both as tv rights and for the stadium spectators) than Georgia and Uruguay. Maybe

This forum is plenty of fancy ideas about new tournaments or new formats of old tournaments. A former RFU Ceo makes the same with the aim to collect money and suddenly he is an idiot. Can you imagine Pineyrua purposing a tournament involving Brazil and Chile and not Tonga and Samoa and be called idiot?

Americas Pacific Challenge, you mean? This is a development tournament for "A" squads funded by WR focused on developing players. Like the Pacific Challenge. I dont like it and made it very clear in the past, but it came from WR....

Seriously, what are you complaining about? People criticized the 2021 tournaments because it were supposed to be a WR competition (not private) with a random invitation system. Why Canada needs more money than Georgia (a better team)? It isn't even an economic reason because he invited both Tonga and Samoa that aren't clearly above Georgia! And it came from the guy that wanted to reduce the RWC to 16 teams. That's why there is suspicion of favouring Beaumont electors.

If he had simply suggested the 16 best teams in the World, people woudn't be that mad. Or the 11 T1s + 5 from continental tournaments or a playoff in early 2021 with a couple of possible teams. Something like this.
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Canalina » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 18:40

According to an article/interview by L'Equipe, these are the purposes for a new calendar by the french and english clubs

# the north / south calendar is maintained, with north hemisphere playing from September to July, and the southern one from February to November
# creation of a Nations Cup. It will be played in even years with three games in the southern hemisphere in July and three in the northern hemisphere in November. Each game is giving away points for a ranking that will allow the best two teams to play a final
# Six Nations remains in the classical period but its duration is reduced by one week, from seven to six (Rugby Championship between September and October)
# British Lions tours are moved from July to November, every four years, in place of the second phase of the Nations Cup. Non-British teams or teams not involved with Lions will play tests against each other and against Tier 2
# weekends of game decreased from 38 to 37, European Cups went from 9 to 8 games
# Clubs World Cup every four years in April, in place of the knockout stages of the European Cups (starting in 2022). The top 8 of the Champions Cup against the top 8 of Super Rugby, while the remaining teams compete for the Super Challenge Cup in the same period of time

https://www.onrugby.it/2020/06/13/coppa ... in-arrivo/

I don't like the idea of a Nations Cup and I don't like the idea of a Clubs World Cup, but maybe I'm just too conservative

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:24

I like the Nations Cup, I don't like the Club World Cup in such format (I'd like a match between Super Rugby and Champions Cup champions only).

This calendar is useless. It doesn't change the crucial thing IMO that is a unified national teams calendar, that releases from clubs players from all countries at the same dates, like FIFA does. Nations Cup in July and TRC in September means TRC countries can't use Europe-based player in both dates, as they woudn't have any vacations. This means a country like Fiji can't have their best team if they enter such tournaments. The same for Argentina if they let the Pumas go to Europe. The same for USA, Samoa, Tonga, Uruguay, etc. And it is also useless for REC as Russia keeps and Romania keep playing in February. They are losing the best opportunity to make rugby good for everybody.
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby Canalina » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 20:15

Maybe not the right thread but I don't find a better one

http://worldrugbycommunications.activeh ... 1e4d0.1183

World Rugby welcomes commitment to further calendar dialogue
World Rugby welcomes commitment between the game's major stakeholders for further dialogue regarding potential adjustments to the global international calendar

Whilst not a decision-making forum, today’s World Rugby Professional Game Forum provided the platform for national unions, international and professional club competitions and players to exchange frank views and consider immediate and long-term calendar reform in line with the guiding core principles of recognising the needs of the international and domestic game and enhancing player welfare.

With the global COVID-19 pandemic significantly impacting the 2020 rugby calendar and union and club finances, all parties recognise the need to agree a compromise solution that enables both disrupted professional club and international competitions to be completed this year.

In the absence of full alignment, further information sharing and discussion will be undertaken with all parties regarding the viability of proposed adjustments to the 2020 international release weekends stipulated in Regulation 9 that will enable postponed and other international matches to be played in an adjusted window from October, while enabling the completion of existing club competitions. The final decision on 2020 will be confirmed by vote of the World Rugby Council on 30 June following consideration and recommendation by the World Rugby Executive Committee.

There was also commitment to further detailed commercial and player welfare modelling in full collaboration with the club game to better assess the viability and attractiveness, for all parties, of a potential new ongoing global release period of October/November from 2021, replacing the July window.

All stakeholders believe that meaningful reform of the international calendar is necessary in a much-changed post COVID-19 environment to revitalise the global game and deliver much-needed alignment between international and club rugby with fewer overlaps and enhanced player rest periods.

Crucially, if managed appropriately, the proposed long-term calendar reform will enable meaningful pathways for emerging nations on a global and regional scale and the development of a global international women’s competition model with defined windows that do not overlap with the men’s competitions.

World Rugby Professional Game Forum attendees: World Rugby, The Six Nations, SANZAAR, International Rugby Players, British and Irish Lions, EPCR, PRO 14, LNR, PRL, Top League and Professional Game Committee unions: Argentina, Australia, England, Fiji, France, Japan, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa and Wales.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 20:12

How about an 8-team knockout tournament: B&I Lions, New Zealand, Australia, Asia-Pacific, Africa, Europe, South America, North America.

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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 20:17

Trans-national teams don't have commercial appeal. Only the Lions because, well, they are almost all UK... I don't see anyone apart from rugby diehards interested in continental teams...
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Re: World Cup 2021

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 22:15

In a sense it is too bad the ANZAC team wasn't a consistent touring side. At some point as the sport becomes physically harder the Lions will get chopped if they do not evolve beyond the whole going to RSA, AUS, NZL.

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