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What happens if ARC is discontinued?

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Tobar » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 20:52

Pichulonko wrote:I hope the ARC as we know it gets cancelled and that there's a legit RAN and SAR split, world cup qualifiers included. Besides, SAR doesn't need a tournament like ARC in place when all the support is being geared towards expanding SLAR, a place where the best of South American rugby will partake thereof. And let's not forget about Jaguares should they decide to join the ranks of SLAR and how much that would mean to the level of competition.

I'm all for the change and specially seeing how Canada deals with the consequences of their betrayal.


This is just bizarre and makes no sense. You’re comparing the ARC (international rugby) to SLAR (professional rugby), also ignoring the fact that they are played during two completely different times of the year. So you don’t want them to be a part of the ARC with the US and Canada so they can do...what exactly? I just don’t understand how those two points conflict at all.

Build up both. As victor said, the SAR championship has been around for around 60 years and did nothing. ARC has been around for 4 years and provided significantly more investment, professionalism and interest in the sport. Why get rid of that?

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 22:36

to commit suicide as revenge is unbeliavable.... and with an unacceptable dose of unjustifiable arrogance
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Pichulonko » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 23:48

Canada's vote was plain a simple: We don't appreciate what SAR has done for us during the last RWC cycle and we don't care much with what they have to offer to us in he future. Well then, have a ball with RAN and good luck qualifying again to a WC!

The SLAR is expanding and it took but a few games how competitive it can be and as a Chilean I am much more pleased and hopeful about the development of rugby in my country by following the path of the SLAR than with what the ARC, with Argentina's and Uruguay's B sides and Canada's and USA's reserves, can bring to the table.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 00:17

And what USA and Mexico have to do with Canadian vote? They are in ARC's system and supported Pichot. It is Sudamerica Rugby that is "betraying" their support.

As of a development ARC format, it is ridiculous, big waste of money. What's the financial logic in paying transcontinental travel for T2 "B" squads? Absolutely out of reality. It is WR that pays ARC travels and they wont pay for that, nonsense.

As of SLAR, no, it is not expanding. It barely born. That's naive to buy the official narrative. SLAR has to many issues to address before being considered viable.

It is incredible people buying that killing ARC and relying on SLAR is any sort of solution. Bizarre arrogance.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Pichulonko » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 04:07

Chile faces off against Brasil, Uruguay and Argentina XV outside of ARC on a consistent basis. So the question is simple: Is it worth spending all that time and money just to play against Canada's and USA's developmental sides? I think not.

You are all romanticizing the idea of having a continental Six Nations of our own. On paper it looks fantastic, but in reality is a Class B tournament that brings very little to the table.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Thomas » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 09:21

So much for a continental unified front, when because of 1 vote other countries are punished. I don't think South America Rugby see's the big picture and the likes of Mexico will be punished and sent to the great wilderness.

This petty spat is not just short minded but borderline suicidal as already indicated. This will take the continent 3 steps back. Rugby Union is not strong enough like football to have a RAN and SAR split, it will hurt many emerging nations.

The whole concept of discontinuing is a fallacy.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 14:21

Pichulonko wrote:Chile faces off against Brasil, Uruguay and Argentina XV outside of ARC on a consistent basis. So the question is simple: Is it worth spending all that time and money just to play against Canada's and USA's developmental sides? I think not.

You are all romanticizing the idea of having a continental Six Nations of our own. On paper it looks fantastic, but in reality is a Class B tournament that brings very little to the table.

Romanticizing? The only "romantic" thing here is you believing SLAR is "expanding".

Dude, it is a fact ARC brought ESPN investment, World Rugby money and created the first realy comercial competition for South Americans. with a much stronger level no matter which squads Canada and USA used. And that'a a big lie USA and Canada always used development squads. USA even won the title beating Argentina XV. Canada used many RWC players when defeated by Brazil. The teams they sent were excelent for our development. ESPN in North American showed the matches, which means there wasn't a random shit.

Brazil beating Chile or even Uruguay (at least before their RWC2019 achievement) brings nothing in terms of marketing and media awareness. We beat Canada and USA and that made all the difference in the world for the past 4 years. It is not others fault Chile was beaten by everybody and couldn't profit properly on this competition. Chile used some of the worst stadiums in the competitions in the last 4 years, very amateur events... I ask if it wasn't Chile the one not taking properly serious ARC as a growth path.

And why don't you comment about USA and Mexico supporting Pichot and getting in return this "betrayal" from a bitter Sudamerica Rugby that wants them to pay for Canada's choices? How valid is the comment "oh, North America betrays us"?
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Pichulonko » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 16:53

There are so many inaccuracies in so many levels with your last post that I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

First off, Sudamerica Rugby is backing the SLAR 100% and they have great plans for it, including expansion. Sebastián Piñeyrua said so and there's no reason to think otherwise.

Second, the way you describe the ARC one would think you{re talking about The Six Nations or the Rugby Championship. "Stronger Level"? "USA beat Argentina"? "Canada fielded their RWC quad"? WHAT!?!?!? You have no clue what you're talking about. In fact you even contradict yourself by first calling me a liar about Canada and the USA playing with developmental sides and then on the next sentence you state that "the teams they sent were excellent for our [Brasil] development". I suggest you get your facts straight.

You say that "Chile used some of the worst stadiums in the competitions in the last 4 years" which is a complete fallacy. Everyone, with the exception of Uruguay played in the sorriest of venues that you could imagine, worthy of a B-List tournament. Brasil played in old, ran down, empty arenas with terrible surface pitch. Argentina used local grounds that leave a lot to be desired of. Canada played their home games in their poorly lit home (artificial) turf. And the Eagles played in sorry little league baseball grounds and poorly maintained division III college fields. Only one time did US Rugby play on a proper field and that was against Argentina XV in Dignity Health Sports Park in California.

It baffles my mind the fact that you don't understand what it meant for our region the fact that RAN split their vote. I'll try to spell it out for you hoping that you will understand this time. The vote for Beaumont means that they want to follow a different model up north, one different from the south, one close to Europe. Canada's vote meant the end of "Americas Together" leaving no guarantees that both the USA and Canada will be fully onboard, including the ARC during non-world cup qualifying years.

Sudamerica Rugby already has plans in place of having a four nations tournament where the winner will qualify directly to the world cup in France and the second place finishers will go on to a home and away playoff or international repechage pool. On top of that there will be a 14 week SLAR schedule in place and other competitions to be determined by the governing board. And as far as Mexico is concerned, they are very much welcomed to join SAR much like the neglected Central American Unions have done in recent years.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Tobar » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 17:11

Don’t forget BBVA Compass (MLS Stadium), Starfire Sports and Toyota Field. Dell Diamond, despite being a baseball stadium, was also a good choice. But the thing you seem to fail to realize is that the US didn’t drop down their quality of stadiums...we always use these kinds of stadiums unless we play against Tier 1 opponents that can gather 20,000+. Hell, and even then we use an MLS stadium (like BBVA Compass, which has been used 4 times since 2010, once for the ARC).

If the US and Canada were really sending developmental squads then surely everyone else would beat them, right? Well, the US won 2 titles and came in 2nd in another. The only one we came in 3rd was last year when Uruguay took 2nd for the first time. And where was Chile? Dead last. Even if these were developmental squads, I’d be more concerned about Chile’s ability to punch at its own weight.

And just an FYI, the only reason you think these are developmental squads is because we are unable to secure the release of some of our best players in Europe. We are victims of the same suppression of Tier 2/3 rugby as Chile is so make sure to take that into account when you criticize us for things you don’t understand.

And again, SLAR AND ARC ARE TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF COMPETITIONS THAT DON’T CLASH. Saying that you’d rather focus on SLAR than the ARC is like saying you don’t want to watch the NBA because the NFL is on in a few months. Keep in mind that SLAR wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the ARC.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 17:27

Pichulonko wrote:There are so many inaccuracies in so many levels with your last post that I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

First off, Sudamerica Rugby is backing the SLAR 100% and they have great plans for it, including expansion. Sebastián Piñeyrua said so and there's no reason to think otherwise.

Second, the way you describe the ARC one would think you{re talking about The Six Nations or the Rugby Championship. "Stronger Level"? "USA beat Argentina"? "Canada fielded their RWC quad"? WHAT!?!?!? You have no clue what you're talking about. In fact you even contradict yourself by first calling me a liar about Canada and the USA playing with developmental sides and then on the next sentence you state that "the teams they sent were excellent for our [Brasil] development". I suggest you get your facts straight.

You say that "Chile used some of the worst stadiums in the competitions in the last 4 years" which is a complete fallacy. Everyone, with the exception of Uruguay played in the sorriest of venues that you could imagine, worthy of a B-List tournament. Brasil played in old, ran down, empty arenas with terrible surface pitch. Argentina used local grounds that leave a lot to be desired of. Canada played their home games in their poorly lit home (artificial) turf. And the Eagles played in sorry little league baseball grounds and poorly maintained division III college fields. Only one time did US Rugby play on a proper field and that was against Argentina XV in Dignity Health Sports Park in California.

It baffles my mind the fact that you don't understand what it meant for our region the fact that RAN split their vote. I'll try to spell it out for you hoping that you will understand this time. The vote for Beaumont means that they want to follow a different model up north, one different from the south, one close to Europe. Canada's vote meant the end of "Americas Together" leaving no guarantees that both the USA and Canada will be fully onboard, including the ARC during non-world cup qualifying years.

Sudamerica Rugby already has plans in place of having a four nations tournament where the winner will qualify directly to the world cup in France and the second place finishers will go on to a home and away playoff or international repechage pool. On top of that there will be a 14 week SLAR schedule in place and other competitions to be determined by the governing board. And as far as Mexico is concerned, they are very much welcomed to join SAR much like the neglected Central American Unions have done in recent years.


Don't fool yourself, I know pretty much the ARC more than you believe.

Sudamerica Rugby doesn't "support" SLAR. It is its organizer, and it means nothing about its possible success or not. Sudamerica Rugby doesn't have the $ to make the difference by itself. It need partners. It may become a real good thing, but there is nothing as a success already.

I can list you ALL stadiums Brazil used: Pacaembu (Libertadores, Brasileirão stadium), Arena Barueri (hosted Sevens World Series, Libertadores and Brasileirão) and Martins Pereira (hosted WR U20s Trophy, renewed as FIFA WC training stadium) are stadiums more than good for ARC. The only stadium that fits your description is Jundiaí, used in ONE match, that one against Chile.

Chile in the other hand is going from one to another second class soccer stadium. Apart from Talcahuano and La Serena stadiums (2 home matches, out of 10), that are good enough, the others were (just checked) La Reina, La Pintana, Maipu and U Catolica's mini stadium that, come on, only shows Chile wasn't commited or capable enough to bring the events to a better level. And always delayed the anouncement of venues. "Oh, but Canada's Langford and Uruguay's Charrua aren't better". They aren't bigger, but they are proper national rugby stadiums, that is a positive situation, with new artificial turfs. They have a much better stadium situation than Brazil and Chile. As for Argentina, they used rugby fields packed with public, with a strategy behind to bring Argentina XV to audiences that can't have Los Pumas. Perfect.

I realy question how commited has been Chile because, come on, while Brazil and Uruguay realy improved with ARC in these four years, Chile lost 19 out of 20 matches played (only beat Brazil once). And how can you be behind Brazil in those four years if you have a MUCH BETTER junior rugby and club rugby structure than us?

Nobody sane throws away the opportunity to play better ranked teams in matches for ranking points! The Ranking matters for marketing, WR resources... Chile took so long time to understand (or simply haven't yet realised) how good can be ARC for your national team, not only inside the field, but most importantly outside it, with ESPN (that covered it for the whole Americas, which makes all the difference), sponsors, etc.

To finish, Sudamerica Rugby can fight for a direct spot and use ARC for that. It is ridiculously obvious these things aren't excludent. We don't need to replace ARC by the South American Championship for that. And as Tobar said, SLAR and ARC don't compete in the calendar, it is mumbo jumbo talk to justiffy ARC's end with SLAR.

Keep in mind that SLAR wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the ARC.

Totaly true, Tobar, agree with you in all you said.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:38

Losing the Americas Rugby Championship to get a direct spot in the World Cup... that would be the worst deal in the history of deals.

And if World Rugby decides to keep the old format... even worse.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:39

Canalina wrote: If "Americas Together" broke up, Usa and Canada would return to look at the other continents, Mexico would return in its limbo and the Caribbean nations would return to their tiny, frail and semi-clandestine RAN Championship

And South America would become alone, with no close ties with anyone.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:45

victorsra wrote: If they realy want to split the RWC Qualy, the reasonable thing to do is state that they want to use ARC matches for that, for exemple, using the ARC to define the RWC Repechage spot, and that they have a bigger project for ARC as a flagship event, etc, no matter if it worths the RWC or not. The real problem here is the statement that f*off ARC.

Exactly. Did Sudamérica Rugby want a marquee tournament? A two-year ARC with two direct qualification spots would be it.

When I talk to my father, I don't mention him the Americas Rugby Championship. I tell him let's go to see the Teros home matches at the Panamericano de Rugby.

With no ARC, do they think that people like my father will care if we bring Georgia, Romania, Spain and Italy XV every year for the Nations Cup? Of course not.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:55

I'm aware that Canada suffered every loss against the Teros, and were relieved of every win over Chile and Brazil.

In the past 5 years, 7 of Canada's wins were against South America teams. Without playing them, they will struggle to claim wins. The last June window they claimed a win was in 2016.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:56

If the Americas Rugby Championship disappears, the Brazilian and Chilean unions will kick Sebastian Piñeyrua away.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby jonny24 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 22:27

The arrogance to claim to desire equality and democracy, only to criticize someone for exercising their right to vote as they saw fit if it wasn't the candidate someone else wanted, is astounding.

Unless Rugby Canada promised to vote a certain way in exchange for something they have received, there has been no betrayal.

It is entirely possible to remain committed to the ARC and building rugby in the Americas, while also choosing a different candidate than the other to lead world rugby.

Let's not forget that the last four years of growth and development in the Americas did happen under Bill Beaumont. He isn't the devil.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby ficcp » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 23:58

IMHO Chile was not up to the ARC Challenge. Results talk by themselves. I do not mind if USA , Agentina or Canada did not play with their best teams, they defeated us by large scores not by tight ones.The National team had 5 coaches in 4 years before the arrival of Lemoine (in 2018) -as I posted 2 years ago- the best players were not available due to the time of the year(full summer) so in several matches was a real "development team".

In which concern the stadiums, I think you should bring the sport where the audience is. In full summer was not logical to play in Santiago but in Viña del Mar, Concepción or La serena.
If you want to promote the Sport in areas of Santiago where Rugby has no presence, it is necessary to create an interest before through the creation and promotion of local clubs. The Rugby activity is strongly concentrated in the east side of Santiago and most of the selected players belong to traditional non inclusive clubs.

ARC with 6 teams or Southamerican championship with 4 will not make any difference if the National team is not well prepared. Lemoine has done a good job given the availability of resourcesSLAR was a good option to change the attitude of the players towards Professionalism because Hourcade was right when he declared that "Rugby in Chile is recreational". The players are the prime resources of the game, and if they do not want to have a "professional attitude" is their option which has to be respected. A real Professionalim requires a broader promotion of the game to areas which is not being played yet, that is a long term project and effort.
In the short term, it is necesary to develop a good work with those who are prone to a professional attitude and face any championship with total commitment. It is always better to play more games than less games against better teams.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 03:37

Lemoine has everything to do a good job and it is realy possible to see Chile passing Brazil in the next years. And ARC would be an essencial path for Chile to do that. Imagine if Chile manage to beat Canada like Brazil did. This would be terrific for Chilean rugby.

The more competitive Brazil, Chile and Uruguay are in matches against each other, the better is for everybody. And it forces Canada and USA more and more to offer their best. ARC benefits everybody.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Canalina » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 06:19

jonny24 wrote:The arrogance to claim to desire equality and democracy, only to criticize someone for exercising their right to vote as they saw fit if it wasn't the candidate someone else wanted, is astounding.

It’s the big wave of populism generated by Pichot. Populism has always the same features, in whichever ambit

- a solitary leader
- awesome but vague missions: we must be all equal, more democracy, a global growth
- doubtless certainties: we are right, the others are wrong
- the leader (aka “el nuestro grande lìder”) is surrounded by worshipping gregarious and supporters, like Smithers/Pineyrua
- the leader affirms repeatedly to be not interested at all to the chairs, but he has a lot of offices (like, for pure example, vicepresident of World Rugby, president of Rugby Americas, counselor of Rugby Americas North, puppeteer of the president of Sudamerica Rugby, manovrateur of all the most important affairs of Argentina Rugby, counselor of Sanzaar)
- the opponents of the populists are always enemies, not simple adversaries, and of course they incarnate all the worst charachteristics that a man may incarnate
- the chief opponent is depicted as rich, powerful and arrugant; the populistic leader instead depicts himself as simple, not interested to the power and desiring just to help the others
- the populists never lose. If that unfortunately happens, the fault must be loaded on an external culprit, let’s say for example the representant of Africa Rugby. Some heavy and free accusations may be thrown to the scapegoat (let’s say for example “corruption? Well, I hope there was not…”)
- in front of the problems the populists react in a childish way: let’s say for example “I don’t care if I reapetedly said that I want to help rugby, if I can’t have the most important role in the world I quit all my other many roles and I slam the door behind me like a primadonna” or “they voted against el nuestro grande lìder!!! We will not participate anymore to the ARC !”
- for the populists, and for their idolizing fans, whoever thinks differently from them is a “traitor”

I think the post-electoral phase is clearly showing how much we have been lucky on having a normal person like Beaumont winning the election, and not an egocentric populist

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 11:12

If any nation should be crying 'traitor' it's the US because of their historical ties to Canada. Let's remember the uniting of both North and South America is only a recent thing, so if anyone should be feeling aggrieved at Canada voting for Beaumont it should be the Americans. But as far as we've seen they aren't publicly wanting to shame anyone. Could be a different story behind close doors of course and they are pissed off, but to do so publicly is childish behaviour.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Pedro1 » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 11:22

Canalina, your take on the situation is as childish as Pyñerua's.
Pichot lost the election, congratulated the winner and then decided to step away. He has the right to do that.

Pyñerua's (and by default SAR) stance isn't about Canada's vote per se, they are using it as a scape goat to push for the direct qualification, something Victor already said they have been pushing for quite sometime.

They probably expected to get the direct spot had Pichot won, since he didn't they are looking for other always to pressure WR.

A stupid dumb fuckwit way of doing it by throwing the baby away with the bath water.
Last edited by Pedro1 on Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 11:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 11:36

I was under the impression it was decided the ARC was going to be the qualification path long before the election was even scheduled to happen. Wasn't it sometime early last year the decision was made by the North and South confederations to combine their qualifying path?

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Thomas » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 13:34

Pedro1 wrote:Canalina, your take on the situation is as childish as Pyñerua's.
Pichot lost the election, congratulated the winner and then decided to step away. He has the right to do that.

Pyñerua's (and by default SAR) stance isn't about Canada's vote per se, they are using it as a scape goat to push for the direct qualification, something Victor already said they have been pushing for quite sometime.

They probably expected to get the direct spot had Pichot won, since he didn't they are looking for other always to pressure WR.

A stupid dumb fuckwit way of doing it by throwing the baby away with the bath water.


I agree with all that people have said and Mexico and Central America will get stuck in no man's land as the USA aligns itself with Canada their natural allies if it does eventuate and ARC is discontinued.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 14:39

Canalina wrote:
jonny24 wrote:The arrogance to claim to desire equality and democracy, only to criticize someone for exercising their right to vote as they saw fit if it wasn't the candidate someone else wanted, is astounding.

It’s the big wave of populism generated by Pichot. Populism has always the same features, in whichever ambit

- a solitary leader
- awesome but vague missions: we must be all equal, more democracy, a global growth
- doubtless certainties: we are right, the others are wrong
- the leader (aka “el nuestro grande lìder”) is surrounded by worshipping gregarious and supporters, like Smithers/Pineyrua
- the leader affirms repeatedly to be not interested at all to the chairs, but he has a lot of offices (like, for pure example, vicepresident of World Rugby, president of Rugby Americas, counselor of Rugby Americas North, puppeteer of the president of Sudamerica Rugby, manovrateur of all the most important affairs of Argentina Rugby, counselor of Sanzaar)
- the opponents of the populists are always enemies, not simple adversaries, and of course they incarnate all the worst charachteristics that a man may incarnate
- the chief opponent is depicted as rich, powerful and arrugant; the populistic leader instead depicts himself as simple, not interested to the power and desiring just to help the others
- the populists never lose. If that unfortunately happens, the fault must be loaded on an external culprit, let’s say for example the representant of Africa Rugby. Some heavy and free accusations may be thrown to the scapegoat (let’s say for example “corruption? Well, I hope there was not…”)
- in front of the problems the populists react in a childish way: let’s say for example “I don’t care if I reapetedly said that I want to help rugby, if I can’t have the most important role in the world I quit all my other many roles and I slam the door behind me like a primadonna” or “they voted against el nuestro grande lìder!!! We will not participate anymore to the ARC !”
- for the populists, and for their idolizing fans, whoever thinks differently from them is a “traitor”

I think the post-electoral phase is clearly showing how much we have been lucky on having a normal person like Beaumont winning the election, and not an egocentric populist


Pedro1 wrote:Canalina, your take on the situation is as childish as Pyñerua's.
Pichot lost the election, congratulated the winner and then decided to step away. He has the right to do that.

Pyñerua's (and by default SAR) stance isn't about Canada's vote per se, they are using it as a scape goat to push for the direct qualification, something Victor already said they have been pushing for quite sometime.

They probably expected to get the direct spot had Pichot won, since he didn't they are looking for other always to pressure WR.

A stupid dumb fuckwit way of doing it by throwing the baby away with the bath water.




Yes, Pedro. And Canalina, this is not the new wave of populism. This is just how South American elites always worked (destroying things as political tools to blame others). Rugby is an elite sport in the region and this short-minded individualistic approach is just appearing as usual.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Canalina » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 15:46

I can't agree. But, ok, we have already talked enough about this. I remain on my opinion, even if of course I'm not in the head of Pichot and I can't be sure at 100%
About the hypothesis that this is all a move to make pressure on Rugby Canada, I can't agree either; to me it's just a spite, with no other purpose. As I wrote before, I can't see a great difference between having one (and only one) direct spot and the chance to play with an other continent for up to two direct spots: at the end of the day it's, more or less, the same thing. So I suspect that the "direct spot problem" is just a pretest to create a quarrel, to vent the anger for the electoral result

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