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What happens if ARC is discontinued?

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What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 02:26

Well, Sudamerica Rugby is angry with North America (because of Beaumont's election) and might simply discontinue the Americas Rugby Championship https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/se ... 2068192028

It might be just a game they are playing and nothing realy happens. However, if it does, what can happen?

I woudn't be surprised if USA and Canada join Japan, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga in a revamped and better Pacific Nations Championship. If the global calendar is unified with 6N and TRC in March/April, PNC could be played in the same period with a much better round robin schedule. And this would leave South America isolated....
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 03:28

The claims in that article are awful. Everytime Pineyrua talks I vomit.

He needs to stop saying "North America" looks at it as a developmental tournament. The US doesn't, at least based on the fact we attempt to put our best team every game. Canada? Well, when they wanted the same status as Argentina they were also getting destroyed.

If the ARC goes away it will hurt this hemisphere deeply. Where it gets dicey is a global calendar, then the PNC would be in the same window and it has tougher competition. However, why bring Canada and not Uruguay?

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Canalina » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 05:16

The Americas fusion was hoped by this forum since many years ago, because North and South America seem complementary at every level. Usa and Canada may find in Jaguares, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil the good rivals that they can't find in the North; Mexico may find in Colombia, Venezuela or Peru teams of its same level; the Caribbean nations may find in the Isthmus, at least theoretically, new meaningful opponents. If "Americas Together" broke up, Usa and Canada would return to look at the other continents, Mexico would return in its limbo and the Caribbean nations would return to their tiny, frail and semi-clandestine RAN Championship

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Tobar » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 11:59

The ARC is the best thing to happen to SAR so for them to suggest that they may move on from it is ridiculous. USA and Canada have both treated the competition seriously - we haven’t been able to get as many European based players as we’d hope but that doesn’t matter. USA/Canada still finished in the top 3 so idk what to tell them.

It sounds like this entire thing is SAR being mad at Canada for voting Beaumont (and convincing RAN to split their vote). That’s it.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 13:48

If this collapses then the sport is a joke. I get South America being pissed at Canada for their vote, I'm also understanding of their position that they should have been earning direct qualification to the world cup for years. Throwing away the ARC would damage the entire Americas region, throwing away all the good work done over the last 5-6 years.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Tobar » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 15:23

thatrugbyguy wrote:If this collapses then the sport is a joke. I get South America being pissed at Canada for their vote, I'm also understanding of their position that they should have been earning direct qualification to the world cup for years. Throwing away the ARC would damage the entire Americas region, throwing away all the good work done over the last 5-6 years.


It would be a greater betrayal to Pichot and his work than voting for Beaumont ever would.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby GeoRugby » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 15:30

I hope Rugby Canada voting for Beaumont is not being used as pretext for all this. I disagree with RC choice of candidate, but it would be doing a lot of damage to promising South American counties like Brasil or Chile if ARC were to be stopped.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 15:36

GeoRugby wrote:I hope Rugby Canada voting for Beaumont is not being used as pretext for all this. I disagree with RC choice of candidate, but it would be doing a lot of damage to promising South American counties like Brasil or Chile if ARC were to be stopped.


That's basically what Pineyrua is stating. But he groups everyone up here together, as if the US had voted for Beaumont yet we voted for Pichot.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 16:13

Yes, he is saying this is basicaly a revenge against Canada. And denying at the same time...

I question if this breakaway happens what Mexico will do. I woudn't be surprised if they move to Sudamerica Rugby, leaving RAN as a USA-Canada-Caribbean thing.

And also, what Caribbeans think about this? I have no idea what the Caribbeans think about this whole 4-years "Americas United" project. Maybe countries like Bermuda and Cayman, with expats influence and UK ties, don't realy care, while Guyana, Jamaica or T&T might be realy concerned. But I don't know, it is just a guess.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby GeoRugby » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 16:22

If it is being used as "revenge", he is shooting himself in the foot. If ARC stops, South American rugby is the one that will lose in this. Canada and USA will manage somehow. And again, like StroBro says, USA voted for Pichot so this "we'll show Rugby Canada" attitude is stupid and makes absolutely no sense.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 16:26

GeoRugby wrote:If it is being used as "revenge", he is shooting himself in the foot. If ARC stops, South American rugby is the one that will lose in this. Canada and USA will manage somehow. And again, like StroBro says, USA voted for Pichot so this "we'll show Rugby Canada" attitude is stupid and makes absolutely no sense.

YES. Well, their official idea is that they want a direct spot to South America and to be fair they are saying this for many years. So, this idea wasn't born now. However, the problem is to state that ARC doesn't matter.

If they realy want to split the RWC Qualy, the reasonable thing to do is state that they want to use ARC matches for that, for exemple, using the ARC to define the RWC Repechage spot, and that they have a bigger project for ARC as a flagship event, etc, no matter if it worths the RWC or not. The real problem here is the statement that f*off ARC.

A mid-way for that is to use ARC standings to define just the Repechage spot, for exemple.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby GeoRugby » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 16:45

YES. Well, their official idea is that they want a direct spot to South America and to be fair they are saying this for many years. So, this idea wasn't born now. However, the problem is to state that ARC doesn't matter.

That spot would most likely go to Uruguay anyway. I think ARC should be used as qualifier. Uruguay and USA would probably take the automatic spots, but then Brasil would have decent chance against Canada for Repechage spot.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 18:08

GeoRugby wrote:
YES. Well, their official idea is that they want a direct spot to South America and to be fair they are saying this for many years. So, this idea wasn't born now. However, the problem is to state that ARC doesn't matter.

That spot would most likely go to Uruguay anyway. I think ARC should be used as qualifier. Uruguay and USA would probably take the automatic spots, but then Brasil would have decent chance against Canada for Repechage spot.


Canada (now with Toronto Arrows) would be perfectly able to beat Uruguay. Uruguay would be the favorite, but that can be an open match.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 20:34

victorsra wrote:Yes, he is saying this is basicaly a revenge against Canada. And denying at the same time...

I question if this breakaway happens what Mexico will do. I woudn't be surprised if they move to Sudamerica Rugby, leaving RAN as a USA-Canada-Caribbean thing.

And also, what Caribbeans think about this? I have no idea what the Caribbeans think about this whole 4-years "Americas United" project. Maybe countries like Bermuda and Cayman, with expats influence and UK ties, don't realy care, while Guyana, Jamaica or T&T might be realy concerned. But I don't know, it is just a guess.


I've spoken with a lot of people on this whole "Canada convincing RAN to split it's vote thing". If you look at RAN, of the major Unions that aren't the US and Mexico, how many of them are members of the Commonwealth?

RAN Members that are also members of the Commonwealth:
Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Bermuda
British VI
Canada
Cayman Islands
Guyana
Jaimaica
Saint Lucia
St Vincent & The Grenadines
Trinidad & Tobago
Turks & Caicos

So of the 20 members, 13 happen to be members of the Commonwealth.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 09 Jun 2020, 21:58

USA and Mexico are the only World Rugby members in RAN that aren't Commonwealth countries.

Curaçao, Dominican Republic and the French territories are non-Commonwealth RAN members, but they aren't WR members...
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 06:02

Throwing the competition away is as far as I'm concerned foolish. I get the position with regards to RWC qualification, I championed for a long time that South America deserves direct qualification and on the back of Uruguay's performance at the last world cup it's even harder to argue against now. In fact, there's a strong argument at the moment they can claim to be the best team in the Americas outside of Argentina. The idea however that Canada and the US haven't taken the ARC seriously though is a completely unfair attack. They may not have always had their best squads available because of players playing in Europe, but there was never anything but full commitment from the NA teams to the tournament. The ARC must survive.

The main sticking point is whether it should be a World Cup qualification tournament. I think logically this is the best way forward, I didn't always think that away but I've come around to it, mostly because of the progress by South America over the last 10 years, and the fact the NA qualification was the easiest path to the World Cup in all of rugby. If Mexico and one or two other RAN nations were at a higher level then I think there's a better argument for splitting the qualification between North and South divisions, 1 place each with the runners up from each division playing off to qualify for the Repechage. But until that day comes a combined tournament is the best option.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Tobar » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 17:11

If the qualification is tied to the ARC then South America is guaranteed to have at least 1 of the 3 spots, if not more. If they are truly better than the US or Canada then Americas 1 or 2 will go to a South American team, essentially giving them direct qualification. This is much better than the old qualification method which gave them no chance at directly qualifying.

I understand why they would want to have their own direct entry but this way seems much better for the sport. This guarantees that the better team should be in the RWC (which we all want to see) and it will make the ARC all the more important. If Pineyrua really thinks that the US and Canada aren’t taking it seriously enough then that will easily change with RWC qualification on the line.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 17:40

Yes, but Sudamerica Rugby knows they can be without any spot if Canada beats Uruguay and Uruguay loses in the Repechage, for exemple. And this is a pretty possible scenario and one that rewards Canada, now Piñeyrua's number 1 enemy.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 17:55

But that's the POV Canada could have about Nations Championship. Like 'let's not go crazy about it because we can fall from this cliff to 3rd tier, let's keep statu quo'. Are really Sudamérica Rugby now embracing more barriers and less fluidity in international rugby?

I mean, they can ask for it and it isn't undeserved, but it doesn't make sense with their approach to international rugby from... two weeks ago. It makes Uruguay position a bit safer but brakes Brazil, Chile or Colombia potential progress. That's why I only think they are playing hardball in public and this can't be their real plan.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 18:01

Armchair Fan wrote:But that's the POV Canada could have about Nations Championship. Like 'let's not go crazy about it because we can fall from this cliff to 3rd tier, let's keep statu quo'. Are really Sudamérica Rugby now embracing more barriers and less fluidity in international rugby?

I mean, they can ask for it and it isn't undeserved, but it doesn't make sense with their approach to international rugby from... two weeks ago. It makes Uruguay position a bit safer but brakes Brazil, Chile or Colombia potential progress. That's why I only think they are playing hardball in public and this can't be their real plan.

Yes, contradiction as revenge.
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 06:59

Would the argument be solved if there were 3 direct places to the world cup for Americas?

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 14:47

Maybe...
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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Pichulonko » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 17:49

I hope the ARC as we know it gets cancelled and that there's a legit RAN and SAR split, world cup qualifiers included. Besides, SAR doesn't need a tournament like ARC in place when all the support is being geared towards expanding SLAR, a place where the best of South American rugby will partake thereof. And let's not forget about Jaguares should they decide to join the ranks of SLAR and how much that would mean to the level of competition.

I'm all for the change and specially seeing how Canada deals with the consequences of their betrayal.

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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby Canalina » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 18:12


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Re: What happens if ARC is discontinued?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 19:14

Pichulonko wrote:I hope the ARC as we know it gets cancelled and that there's a legit RAN and SAR split, world cup qualifiers included. Besides, SAR doesn't need a tournament like ARC in place when all the support is being geared towards expanding SLAR, a place where the best of South American rugby will partake thereof. And let's not forget about Jaguares should they decide to join the ranks of SLAR and how much that would mean to the level of competition.

I'm all for the change and specially seeing how Canada deals with the consequences of their betrayal.


This is obtuse. South America was amateur before ARC, with a poor level apart from Uruguay. It was ARC that brought substancial support from ESPN to the national team (therefore, added value for sponsors, media, public). Something the South American Championship never brought, while SLAR is pure hope, nothing concrete (which means it is sily to depend on SLAR).

I might heavily criticise Canada, but this is their right to make poor choices. There is no betrayal. ARC can't be involved. In civilized democratic leagues/federation, it is common that members haver different votes, want different things. But they don't break collective institutions just because they disagree about a leadership. In sport, a main competition is a "institution" and must be preserved.

Keep Canada and USA in the competition and use the next 4 years to improve cooperation. Canada voting for Beaumont also shows South America failed in bringing them closer. It is not just one-way fault.

Also, it is very short-minded to break with USA (they voted for Pichot). How inteligent is to break with USA because of Canada? And to turn the back to ("betray") Mexico (who helped to get one RAN vote to Pichot as well).

I hope the archaic way of thinking you are showing just fades away quickly, for the future of our region.
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