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Multi-sport Cities

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 05:19

Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Coventry's stadium, Butts Park Arena, looks pretty decent. And they are one of the best supported Championship teams. I think whatever the structure is for England's level 2, they will be part of that. I quite like the idea of a 16 team second tier. There are some fairly big clubs with decent facilities in the division below the Championship. I would like the English Championship to be popular.

But I guess 16-teams means Championship will be downgraded to semi-professional, right?


That's actually an interesting question. The article suggests they want to pool resources in ordered to attract increased broadcasting and sponsorship opportunities which suggests the goal would be to make the Championship more financially stable and capable than it currently is. I think the goal should certainly be to develop the Championship further as a professional competition. Both in terms on playing standard and attendance. If the standard in terms of stadium is say 5k then the goal should be for clubs to regularly draw near capacity crowds and be able to operate a salary cap not at the level of the Premiership but something close to the Super League.

Of course that won't be possible from day one but that should be in the medium to long term goals of the Championship clubs.


If you set that at 4000, almost every club would qualify. Current attendances are around 1000, 2000 for the bigger clubs. 4000 would be plenty big enough. Getting near capacity crowds would mean more than doubling attendances. With increased broadcasting revenue, plus merchandising, hospitality, increased sponsorship etc these clubs probably could be professional.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 05:37

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Coventry's stadium, Butts Park Arena, looks pretty decent. And they are one of the best supported Championship teams. I think whatever the structure is for England's level 2, they will be part of that. I quite like the idea of a 16 team second tier. There are some fairly big clubs with decent facilities in the division below the Championship. I would like the English Championship to be popular.

But I guess 16-teams means Championship will be downgraded to semi-professional, right?


That's actually an interesting question. The article suggests they want to pool resources in ordered to attract increased broadcasting and sponsorship opportunities which suggests the goal would be to make the Championship more financially stable and capable than it currently is. I think the goal should certainly be to develop the Championship further as a professional competition. Both in terms on playing standard and attendance. If the standard in terms of stadium is say 5k then the goal should be for clubs to regularly draw near capacity crowds and be able to operate a salary cap not at the level of the Premiership but something close to the Super League.

Of course that won't be possible from day one but that should be in the medium to long term goals of the Championship clubs.


If you set that at 4000, almost every club would qualify. Current attendances are around 1000, 2000 for the bigger clubs. 4000 would be plenty big enough. Getting near capacity crowds would mean more than doubling attendances. With increased broadcasting revenue, plus merchandising, hospitality, increased sponsorship etc these clubs probably could be professional.


And that should the the overall goal. To build these clubs and the competition up to the point where they are actively engaging their community and seeing returns for their efforts. I think the restructure could lead to a very solid competition and being able to draw in local support in these more intimate environs can be what really makes Rugby great.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 10:04

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Coventry's stadium, Butts Park Arena, looks pretty decent. And they are one of the best supported Championship teams. I think whatever the structure is for England's level 2, they will be part of that. I quite like the idea of a 16 team second tier. There are some fairly big clubs with decent facilities in the division below the Championship. I would like the English Championship to be popular.

But I guess 16-teams means Championship will be downgraded to semi-professional, right?


I don't know. Maybe. Most of the players in the Championship earn peanuts. They would be better off if it was semi pro. I suspect it will be a mixture of professional coaches, premiership academy and squad players, and semi pros. The clubs could be affiliated with Premiership clubs. The Welsh Premiership is similar. Each Welsh Pro 14 team has up to 4 Welsh Premiership clubs feeding into it.


The Welsh rugby premiership is a total mess, definitely not something Is advocate anyone to emulate.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 11:19

jservuk wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:The point of owning a ground is so you can rent it out for other events. Which they've done. When you do that you make tons of cash. See the Munster-Saracens match.


Generating cash is one thing, they do that. But generating cash costs money (to put on events) and they are losing £10m per year. Even accounting for sharing costs to the arena company to reduce losses elsewhere they have turned a profitable arena into one haemorrhaging cash.

They can be reliable investments but I cannot see how you can charaterise the Ricoh as one for Wasps.


This why I think the best solution would be for CCFC to be a tenant, so they can reduce their structural deficit. CCFC is potentially a very big club. Ricoh Arena is also in a very good central location, easily accessible from most of the country, so is a good location for big sports events, concerts etc. It should be a cash cow.


Out of interest, has there been any analysis or study as to how many people from Coventry have become regular/occasional attendees at Wasps? Have any switched from CCFC to Wasps?

Also, there was talk a couple of years ago that Wasps wanted to buy the site where CCFC had their training ground. From the outside it seemed like a blatant attempt to run CCFC out of town (or maybe just SISU). It suggests that Wasps were prepared to risk a total breakdown in relations with CCFC, which would certainly have happened had they bought that place. If this is the case, it suggest they had some contingency for no income from CCFC.

Also, around the same time, the Coventry City council were very keen on promoting the city as a Rugby City. I think it was mooted to have a Rugby League team at the Ricoh, possibly to offset any income loss if the football team walked.

The people that run Wasps are rich, shrewd and bold. I think they'll survive without the football club.


I did hear something about CV postcodes v previous season ticket holders. Basic maths suggests the vast majority of attendees must be new, and presumably local.

I doubt many "hardcore" CCFC fans would switch, but there are only maybe 10,000 of those in almost a million people in a CV postcode. Anecdotally I have heard that they don't sell many season tickets but generally have people come a couple of times a year from a fairly wide area (for instance Sutton Coldfield or Solihull). Ref the training ground I agree it came across horribly for them. Knowing the city a little it was the "obvious" spot, which is why CCFC already had it. I think if they had invested into the personal relationships with their current partners (instead of having Haskell slag them off and not defending them) the current location would be a lot better than any of the other propositions.

Richardson isn't that rich from public records. I'm not sure he'll be willing to sink too much more in to be honest. Certainly he can't stand £10m+ for another 5 years.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 12:16

sk 88 thank you. Very insightful. I guess it is a strategy of Wasps to not identify specifically with Coventry, but rather be the team of the West Midlands. Despite their losses, which obviously is a big concern, they are succeeding where Moseley, Birmingham Bees and Coventry RFC have failed.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 07:41

RugbyLiebe wrote:As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


Berlin is probably the only big city with top flight pro clubs in every sport. Just by teams in the top flights soccer (2), ice-hockey, handball, basketball, volleyball

Hamburg: once the city with the most teams, they have only a team in basketball and even this team was facing relegation when Covid-19 showed up
(handball bankrupt, ice-hockey dissolved, soccer teams relegated).(in soccer two in the 2nd Bundesliga)

Munich has soccer, ice-hockey, basketball and until recently volleyball in a suburb.

Cologne: has soccer, ice-hockey, and handball in a suburb.

Frankfurt: has soccer, ice-hockey and basketball

fun fact: all of those cities have rugby teams in the 1st or 2nd Bundesliga: Berlin3+3, Hamburg 1+1, Munich 0+3, Frankfurt 2+2 (close towns <15km included with Munich and Frankfurt), Cologne 0+1.

In general: (attendances from 18/19)
soccer: Every of the 40 cities with over 200k was at least present in the last 30 years in one of the two Bundesligas (with the sole exception of Bonn).
ice-hockey (DEL attend. 6.215): pro teams in most big cities + a lot of smaller towns
handball: (Bundesliga attendance: 4.807): mostly smaller cities with a weak soccer presence.
basketball:(BBL attendance: 4.336) a healthy mix of smaller cities but also most of the biggest ones
volleyball: (attendance: 1.424) mostly smaller cities or suburbs.


Are multi-sport clubs in Germany common? Bayern Munich football team and basketball team are the same club. A football club with a top basketball team, like Real Madrid and Barcelona. Is this the usual way professional sports are organised in Germany or is Bayern Munich exceptional? Does Bayern Munich act as a sort of national club of Bavaria?

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 09:13

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Are multi-sport clubs in Germany common? Bayern Munich football team and basketball team are the same club. A football club with a top basketball team, like Real Madrid and Barcelona. Is this the usual way professional sports are organised in Germany or is Bayern Munich exceptional? Does Bayern Munich act as a sort of national club of Bavaria?


Multisport clubs are the norm in Germany. But having more than one pro-sport is a huge exception. Bayer Leverkusen used to have a basketball team as well (but they are a company multi-sports club Japanese style - Bayer = drugs like aspirin), but now they are semi-pro in the second division. Schalke 04 also plays semi-pro basketball in the same league.
Remember that German-soccer-pro-clubs have the 50+1 rule (which means that the community club needs to hold 51% of its pro-club-setup).
What Bayern succesfully does is using their name as a marketing tool, folklorizes the Bavarian identity and are definitely the team with the most fans in Bavaria (also in the whole of Germany). But national team - no.

A lot of fans actually do come from outside of Munich (probably like the situation in Manchenster, when City was most supported in Manchester itself, 1860 Munich was the more popular club in Munich and Munich county until like 20 years ago).

Also Bavaria consists of three different, what you British would define as, "nations" with Swabia (1 region in Bavaria, about half of Baden-Württemberg), Franconia (3 regions) and Old-Bavaria (3 regions), everyone having their own very distinctive dialects (Swabia = Alemannic, Franconia = Franconian, Old-Bavaria = Austro-Bavarian). Austro-Bavarian (in German only Bairisch, actually Munich and Vienna speak the same lingustic dialect) is btw. its own language according to the Unesco.

To get back to rugby:
Bayern had a rugby team in the 1920ies. 1. FC Nürnberg, VfB Stuttgart and Hannover 96 were founded as rugby clubs. The rugby section of FC St. Pauli Hamburg is actually German's biggest rugby club, also the Hamburger SV still has a rugby section.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 09:21

Bristol City FC Women are moving to Bath. The FA Women's Super League team will make Bath City FC's home ground, Twerton Park, their home. The FA Women's Super League is a 12 team fully professional league. This means Bath now has top level teams in rugby, netball and women's football. 2 of these 3 teams are women's teams. I can now add my city to the multi-sports city list.

Britain and Ireland multi-sport cities

1. London
2. Dublin
3. Manchester
4. Glasgow
5. Cardiff
6. Belfast
7. Leicester
8. Bristol
9. Leeds
10. Worcester
11. Cork
12. Newcastle
13. Coventry
14. Nottingham
15. Galway
16. Sheffield
17. Birmingham
18. Edinburgh
19. Bath

Towns

Guildford
Northampton

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 14:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Are multi-sport clubs in Germany common? Bayern Munich football team and basketball team are the same club. A football club with a top basketball team, like Real Madrid and Barcelona. Is this the usual way professional sports are organised in Germany or is Bayern Munich exceptional? Does Bayern Munich act as a sort of national club of Bavaria?


Multisport clubs are the norm in Germany. But having more than one pro-sport is a huge exception. Bayer Leverkusen used to have a basketball team as well (but they are a company multi-sports club Japanese style - Bayer = drugs like aspirin), but now they are semi-pro in the second division. Schalke 04 also plays semi-pro basketball in the same league.
Remember that German-soccer-pro-clubs have the 50+1 rule (which means that the community club needs to hold 51% of its pro-club-setup).
What Bayern succesfully does is using their name as a marketing tool, folklorizes the Bavarian identity and are definitely the team with the most fans in Bavaria (also in the whole of Germany). But national team - no.

A lot of fans actually do come from outside of Munich (probably like the situation in Manchenster, when City was most supported in Manchester itself, 1860 Munich was the more popular club in Munich and Munich county until like 20 years ago).

Also Bavaria consists of three different, what you British would define as, "nations" with Swabia (1 region in Bavaria, about half of Baden-Württemberg), Franconia (3 regions) and Old-Bavaria (3 regions), everyone having their own very distinctive dialects (Swabia = Alemannic, Franconia = Franconian, Old-Bavaria = Austro-Bavarian). Austro-Bavarian (in German only Bairisch, actually Munich and Vienna speak the same lingustic dialect) is btw. its own language according to the Unesco.

To get back to rugby:
Bayern had a rugby team in the 1920ies. 1. FC Nürnberg, VfB Stuttgart and Hannover 96 were founded as rugby clubs. The rugby section of FC St. Pauli Hamburg is actually German's biggest rugby club, also the Hamburger SV still has a rugby section.

Eintracht Frankfurt still has rugby?
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 14:35

victorsra wrote:Eintracht Frankfurt still has rugby?


They do. Sorry forgot about them. They also turn 100 in 2023. Like the Hamburger SV section they are not really relevant within their own club, from what I've heard and do not really gain anything apart from the name.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 14:44

I think all Continntal Europe countries have multi-sports clubs. South America and North Africa as well. At least on amateur level.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 14:51

victorsra wrote:I think all Continntal Europe countries have multi-sports clubs. South America and North Africa as well. At least on amateur level.


Would be interesting to have a closer look. In German clubs, your membership doesn't expire. You need to actively cancel it.
In Germany those dedicated sport clubs come to live due to the gymnastics movement and then slowly introduced other sports.
What is it like in other countries?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 15:14

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:I think all Continntal Europe countries have multi-sports clubs. South America and North Africa as well. At least on amateur level.


Would be interesting to have a closer look. In German clubs, your membership doesn't expire. You need to actively cancel it.
In Germany those dedicated sport clubs come to live due to the gymnastics movement and then slowly introduced other sports.
What is it like in other countries?


My rugby club in England used to be the sports club of an aircraft manufacturer. That company closed but the sports club continued. The rugby club and football club split and are adjacent. They share a carpark and a name, nothing else. There is an archery club which shares the name and the rugby club facilities, which dates back to the original sports club. And there is a bowls club with the same name, with their own club and bowls green on the site. Archery and bowls are quite popular amateur sports in England.
In addition there is a subaqua club which is based on the site but does not date back to the original club and does not share the name. Other sports clubs sometimes make the rugby club their home, such as rugby league and American football.
Interestingly, as we see with professional clubs in England, the football club is very separate and focuses only on football, whilst the rugby club is a lot more open to other sports.
The rugby club is also a venue for functions. My wedding reception was there. I don't play rugby anymore but I used to play there and now my daughter plays there.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 15:32

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:I think all Continntal Europe countries have multi-sports clubs. South America and North Africa as well. At least on amateur level.


Would be interesting to have a closer look. In German clubs, your membership doesn't expire. You need to actively cancel it.
In Germany those dedicated sport clubs come to live due to the gymnastics movement and then slowly introduced other sports.
What is it like in other countries?


My rugby club in England used to be the sports club of an aircraft manufacturer. That company closed but the sports club continued. The rugby club and football club split and are adjacent. They share a carpark and a name, nothing else. There is an archery club which shares the name and the rugby club facilities, which dates back to the original sports club. And there is a bowls club with the same name, with their own club and bowls green on the site. Archery and bowls are quite popular amateur sports in England.
In addition there is a subaqua club which is based on the site but does not date back to the original club and does not share the name. Other sports clubs sometimes make the rugby club their home, such as rugby league and American football.
Interestingly, as we see with professional clubs in England, the football club is very separate and focuses only on football, whilst the rugby club is a lot more open to other sports.
The rugby club is also a venue for functions. My wedding reception was there. I don't play rugby anymore but I used to play there and now my daughter plays there.


The rugby field is currently occupied by gypsies so rugby training is off :(

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 15:40

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:I think all Continntal Europe countries have multi-sports clubs. South America and North Africa as well. At least on amateur level.


Would be interesting to have a closer look. In German clubs, your membership doesn't expire. You need to actively cancel it.
In Germany those dedicated sport clubs come to live due to the gymnastics movement and then slowly introduced other sports.
What is it like in other countries?


In Brazil, most clubs were born to promote physical activity, the idea of "modernizing" the rural but incrisingly urban Brazil of late 19th/early 29th century, after the end of slavery and mass imigration. Some of them were born as rowing clubs (clubs like Flamengo, Vasco, Botafogo and Corinthians, for exemple), others as swimming, track and field, tennis, others specialy for football, but always open to other sports, like basketball, volleyball.... the social activity (parties, dancing, swimming pools, billiard, cards) were always very important ways to attract membership. But obviously football became eventualy the center of life.

Many clubs were born to unite immigrant communities and have their social activities. Palmeiras and Cruzeiro for the Italian community, Portuguesa and Vasco for the Portuguese, Grêmio the Germans...

In rugby, the oldest club is the British club São Paulo Athletic Club, that was born as a muti-sports British club in 1888. Initialy only with cricket, but introduced football, rugby, tennis in the following years... same for Rio Circket Club, Rio's British club that was born as a cricket clubin the 19th century but introduced football and rugby in early 20th century.

The São Paulo German club, Sport Club Germania, is the other important club that joined forces in 1902 with SPAC to form the first Sao Paul Football League, together with Club Athletico Paulistano (formed by local ruling class, big coffee farmers), Mackenzie College (the American college, introducer of basketball in Brazil) and Sport Club Internacional. Germania (now called Sport Club Pinheiros) is the Olympic sports powerhouse in Brazil and had brifly rugby in the 1920s. Very brifly. Paulistano had rugby as well, but closed the department in 1930s. Mackenzie had rugby brifly and only recreated its department in the 1960s, but as a varsity side. A Japanese club called Nippon Country Club, important in the development of baseball, also had rugby too, but closed the department in the 1990s.

Now, SPAC is the only multisports club with rugby in Brazil. Mackenzie is independent from the university. Rio Cricket doesn't have rugby anymore.
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