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Multi-sport Cities

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Tue, 08 Sep 2020, 19:09

This sort of split happened before with clubs like Torpedo Moscow, Bohemians Praha.... now Belenenses in Portugal also split in two... when amateur and professional sections collide somehow, someone tries to sell part of clubs and etc etc. Each case is different.

According to Wiki:

The original FC Steaua București team was part of the namesake CSA Steaua București sports club and belonged to the Romanian Army. In 1998, the club and facilities were separated from the armed forces and sold to a group of shareholders in a post-Ceaușescu privatization scheme, allegedly leading to one of the shareholders acquiring full ownership five years later. However, the same Army sued the football club in 2011, claiming that this was a new entity; the two have since been in a legal conflict regarding the ownership of the Steaua brand and honours, which resulted in multiple court cases and the forced change of the name of FC Steaua București to FC FCSB in early 2017.[2][3]


In Belenenses case, the professional team now is a breakaway entity. Technicaly the rugby club is linked now to the amateur Belenenses (the original).

Historic football club C.F. Os Belenenses created its SAD (Sociedade Anónima Desportiva - Public limited sports company) on 1 July 1999, to run its professional football section. In 2012, with both club and SAD facing enormous financial troubles, club members voted to sell 51% of its SAD to an investor, Codecity, led by Rui Pedro Soares. Added to the stock purchase, a parasocial deal was struck where the founding club could keep special rights, such as veto power over certain SAD decisions and the power to buy its stock back. Also a protocol was agreed upon that would regulate relations between Club and SAD. The club would keep 10% of SAD stocks.[2][3]

Meanwhile, Codecity terminated the parasocial deal, alleging contractual violations by the Club. In 2017, the Court of Arbitration for Sport deemed the termination of the deal valid, ending the possibility of the Club being able to reacquire the 51% of SAD stocks, in order to regain control of its professional football section.[4]

With tensions mounting between Club and SAD, the protocol that regulated relations between both entities expired on 30 June 2018, ceasing any relationship between both parties. This included the use of Estádio do Restelo (property of the Club) by the SAD's professional football team. Thus was born B-SAD as an autonomous football club, founded on 1 July 2018, after the secession of the SAD from the club.[5] They joined the Lisbon Football Association as member number 1198 (the original Belenenses is member number 64).

Belenenses' historic achievements, such as the victories in the 1945–46 Campeonato Nacional, its 3 Taças de Portugal and 3 Campeonatos de Portugal, solely belong to Club, since they were won before the creation of the SAD in 1999. The Club created its own football team that started playing in the Lisbon FA regional leagues from 2018–19 season.

B-SAD meanwhile claimed the place of the Club in the Primeira Liga. Given that Estádio do Restelo was property of the Club, B-SAD was left without its own stadium. As a consequence, B-SAD started playing home games at the Estádio Nacional in Oeiras, paying rent to the state for use. In February 2019, due to a temporary unavailability of the Estádio Nacional, B-SAD rented Estádio do Bonfim, around sixty kilometres away in Setúbal, for two home games. The game against Moreirense F.C. at this ground on 4 February was attended by 298 spectators, the lowest in the history of the league.[6]

In 29 October 2018, by the intellectual property court decision, B-SAD was prohibited to use the name, shield and symbols of the original Belenenses.[7] As such, after a judicial confirmation of this decision, in 11 March 2019, B-SAD presented a new club badge to differentiate itself from the original club.[8]

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 06:42

Cardiff RFC and Cardiff Blues are considering a merger.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... ility/amp/

Cardiff RFC is already part of Cardiff Athletic Club, which is one of Britain's only multi-sport clubs with a professional team.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Athletic_Club

This is an interesting development but I don't anticipate Cardiff Athletic Club becoming the FC Barcelona of Wales. I don't expect them to have professional teams in anything other than rugby. Britain's other traditional sports are amateur at club level and it doesn't have a basketball department.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 12:26

The two were never really separate. It's just a recognition of the fact the RFC semi pro side is pointless, and that nobody outside Cardiff has ever accepted the Cardiff Blues as a regional team. It's a positive step for them inasmuch as it would end the pointless conflict between CAC and the Blues.

Itd probably be popular with most of their existing supporters but it's hard to see how it would draw in anyone new. I don't buy the idea that there are some imaginary thousands somewhere who would be happy to support "Cardiff Rugby" but refuse downright to support "Cardiff Blues" (bearing in mind Cardiff RFC averages crowds of about 200).

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 13:21

Figaro wrote:The two were never really separate. It's just a recognition of the fact the RFC semi pro side is pointless, and that nobody outside Cardiff has ever accepted the Cardiff Blues as a regional team. It's a positive step for them inasmuch as it would end the pointless conflict between CAC and the Blues.

Itd probably be popular with most of their existing supporters but it's hard to see how it would draw in anyone new. I don't buy the idea that there are some imaginary thousands somewhere who would be happy to support "Cardiff Rugby" but refuse downright to support "Cardiff Blues" (bearing in mind Cardiff RFC averages crowds of about 200).


You say Cardiff RFC semi pro team is pointless, but they are also the strongest team in the Welsh Premiership. What does that say about all the other Welsh Premiership teams? Are Llanelli and Newport also pointless? Newport are facing being kicked out of Rodney Parade. Do you think those 3 semi pro teams should merge with their Pro 14 teams and leave the Premiership to town teams like Pontypridd and Bridgend?

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 15:55

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:The two were never really separate. It's just a recognition of the fact the RFC semi pro side is pointless, and that nobody outside Cardiff has ever accepted the Cardiff Blues as a regional team. It's a positive step for them inasmuch as it would end the pointless conflict between CAC and the Blues.

Itd probably be popular with most of their existing supporters but it's hard to see how it would draw in anyone new. I don't buy the idea that there are some imaginary thousands somewhere who would be happy to support "Cardiff Rugby" but refuse downright to support "Cardiff Blues" (bearing in mind Cardiff RFC averages crowds of about 200).


You say Cardiff RFC semi pro team is pointless, but they are also the strongest team in the Welsh Premiership. What does that say about all the other Welsh Premiership teams? Are Llanelli and Newport also pointless? Newport are facing being kicked out of Rodney Parade. Do you think those 3 semi pro teams should merge with their Pro 14 teams and leave the Premiership to town teams like Pontypridd and Bridgend?


Them doing well on the pitch last season (n.b. they've had a mass exodus of players since...) isn't the same as having a point.

When they set up the regions the idea was that the strength of all the professional clubs in a given area would be pooled together to create a more powerful side. E.g. the Ospreys would combine the playing forces, support, off-field staff etc. of Swansea and Neath. The rugby teams would continue in the premiership but effectively as semi-professional sides, feeder clubs to the regional sides; the regions would be new entities, distinct from the clubs they replaced at the professional level.

In practice, two of the (initially five) regions were just continuations of the clubs that existed. Llanelli RFC had been nicknamed the Scarlets for a century, so creating a "new" "regional side" and calling it the Scarlets - playing in the same stadium with the same colours and the same players - with Llanelli as a "feeder club" was a two fingers to the regional concept. The same is true of Cardiff RFC, who did more or less the same when they were transformed into the Cardiff Blues. The one concession they made was not playing in blue and black any more, but lots of the Blues' kits have featured the Cardiff RFC hoops in some way or other.

The Ospreys and the Dragons were a bit different because they at least made some efforts to distance themselves from their original entities. The Ospreys ended up with a new stadium, so they play somewhere that none of their feeder clubs played. The coat of arms of Glamorgan had an osprey on it, it wasn't associated with Neath RFC or Swansea RFC so that was new as well. The Dragons were a bit more complicated but since dropping the "Newport Gwent" bit of the name they've at least nominally made efforts at being a regional side.

The Blues and Scarlets have not and really cannot do this, because they're so intrinsically tied to their original clubs. This is why I think those clubs (Llanelli RFC and Cardiff RFC) are pointless, because from the point of view of identity they are the same as the regional pro side. Llanelli basically got away with it becuase there were no other professional teams in their part of Wales anyway, and there had always been a history of supporting them throughout west wales. Originally Cardiff's "region" was just the city, which only had the one club of note, so everyone was fine with that too; but when they scrapped the Celtic Warriors region which (covered the valleys) they assigned the lions share of it to Cardiff, meaning those clubs now all feed Cardiff, leading to much resentment outside cardiff. Basically nobody outside cardiff follows the Cardiff Blues, viewing it as a continuation of Cardiff RFC rather than a new side. That's why Cardiff RFC existing as a separate semi pro team is pointless, because it doesn't really exist as a separate concept, and nobody wants to support it (if you live in Cardiff you'd just follow the main team, and if you don't live in cardiff why would you follow the semi-pro team?). Their on-field performance is besides the point.

In theory the semi-pro clubs were meant to be where players developed but now that's almost entirely done at the regional academies. Youth and fringe players are farmed out to the clubs from the pro sides but that doesthe competition more harm than good becuase the strength of a given side oscillates wildly from fixture to fixture, so it's hard to care that much about what happens unless you're a die-hard fan of your local club.

In terms of what the Premiership *should* be, well, it ought to be half the size and not the poor quality mess it is. It should provide a stepping stone to professional rugby, for young welsh players to cut their teeth in and for those too old for the regional academies. Yes I think it's better to see towns that couldn't support a full pro team do well, but at least Newport, Swansea and Neath are clearly distinct entitites to their local regions.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 08 Oct 2020, 08:54

Figaro wrote:The two were never really separate. It's just a recognition of the fact the RFC semi pro side is pointless, and that nobody outside Cardiff has ever accepted the Cardiff Blues as a regional team. It's a positive step for them inasmuch as it would end the pointless conflict between CAC and the Blues.

Itd probably be popular with most of their existing supporters but it's hard to see how it would draw in anyone new. I don't buy the idea that there are some imaginary thousands somewhere who would be happy to support "Cardiff Rugby" but refuse downright to support "Cardiff Blues" (bearing in mind Cardiff RFC averages crowds of about 200).


I mean equally who is happy to go to the Cardiff Arms Park to support "Cardiff Blues, owned by Cardiff AC" but not plain "Cardiff"? I follow a lot of Welsh people on twitter and it has become so toxic with people trying to erase the pre-2003 history, which understandably gets right up people's back and fosters a stronger reaction. I don't think dropping it would add a single person to the gate in the short term, in the same way adding it hasn't added a single person. Longer term I think a clearer focus on who they are should work, Scarlets for instance have dropped the Llanelli from the formal name but very proudly consider it the same club, I don't think that's an option in Cardiff at the moment.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 08 Oct 2020, 20:32

Welsh Rugby Twitter is just toxic in general.

I don't understand why Scarlets need to drop Llanelli from their name, it is the city in which they are based.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Thu, 08 Oct 2020, 20:58

TheStroBro wrote:Welsh Rugby Twitter is just toxic in general.

I don't understand why Scarlets need to drop Llanelli from their name, it is the city in which they are based.


Yes

It's a mess and so much as touch it and you'll only make it worse.

That said, to be fair they've been informally reffered to as the Scarlets for a century. Dropping Llanelli was just a gesture to regionalism that didn't actually bother anyone. It's not as if Llanelli is a strong globally recognised brand or anything.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Sun, 11 Oct 2020, 20:03

https://cardiffbluesblog.com/2020/10/11 ... -it-right/

This gives an idea of the feeling of most Cardiff supporters.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Sun, 11 Oct 2020, 22:22

Figaro wrote:https://cardiffbluesblog.com/2020/10/11/are-cardiff-blues-finally-going-to-get-it-right/

This gives an idea of the feeling of most Cardiff supporters.


Very interesting.

In the other hand, Benetton Treviso never tried to be a region in Italy. It is a club - and a historic victorious one - that keeps this identity.

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