Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Multi-sport Cities

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 02:30

victorsra wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Professional multi-sport clubs don't exist in the United States specifically we don't have amateur arms on our professional clubs. There are very few multi-sport clubs that are even affordable and fewer that field athletic teams in competition in the US.

We do have owners that own multiple teams in a single city. But the teams are large corporations in their own right and it would be difficult to administer them all under one corporation.

LA and New York are very similar. Both have two of everything when it comes to Major Sports.

New York Market-
NFL- Giants and Jets
MLB- Yankees and Mets
NBA- Knicks and Nets
NHL- Rangers and Islanders
MLS- Red Bulls and NYCFC

LA Market-
NFL- Rams and Chargers
MLB- Dodgers and Angels
NBA- Lakers and Clippers
NHL- Kings and Ducks
MLS- Galaxy and LAFC

In each of these markets there are also minor league affiliates. But the closest thing to Multi-Sport clubs that operate under one entity are University athletics. New York doesn't really have a major Football playing school, but many of the universities are highly competitive in Basketball. Whereas Los Angeles has UCLA and USC as the largest institutions, but there are others in the market that compete at a Division 1 NCAA level, but don't have football teams.


You could add to NY the New Jersey Devils? It is NJ, but Red Bulls, Giants and Jets also play in NJ.

I've been always curious about NY if there is a logic behind fans. Usualy Jets, Mets, Nets and Islanders support each other? And in LA the same for Ducks, Angels... Clippers?


Ah, now is my time to shine!

There is a lot of cross over with Jets fans, Mets fans and even Islanders fans to a degree. The reason is because the Jets and Mets both played in Queens (Mets still do) and even shared Shea Stadium from 1964-1983. Even though the Jets have moved to NJ that connection still stands true because many of the people who grew up in Queens during that time have stuck around or moved to Long Island (the suburb right next to Queens). And the Islanders come into play for the same reasons, plus the fact that they had a ton of success in the 80s. They’ve now become pretty popular among younger Long Islanders but there are plenty of Rangers fans. There is no connection to the Nets because they played in New Jersey up until a few years ago so everyone in New York is a Knicks fan. That’s slowly changing because the Knicks have been hot garbage since the 90s.

There is a big crossover between Giants and Yankees but those teams have also been around for around 100+ years so they just have more fans in general. The Mets and Jets still have that underdog/new team feel to them since they both came up in the 60s.

And the Devils are my beloved Devils, the last remaining New Jersey sports team. I hope they never leave but New Jersey is a fragile market being pulled by 2 of the larger metro areas in the country. There are still many more Rangers fans in New Jersey despite the fact that the Devils had one of the more successful franchises from the 90s to 2010s and the Rangers were also hot garbage. This is because a lot of people in New Jersey moved here from New York in the 50s and 60s and kept their sports loyalties and passed them on to their kids. But Rangers suck.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 06:57

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Valladolid: VRAC and El Salvador dominate División de Honor de Rugby, Real Valladolid in LaLiga, Carramimbre Valladolid just earned promotion to basketball's ACB, Recoletas Atlético Valladolid in handball's ASOBAL. Among women teams they also had El Salvador in rugby top-tier this season and Aula Valladolid in handball.

Barcelona only with FC Barcelona sections is there as well.


Professional multi-sports clubs are not common in Britain. But there are a few. Stephen Lansdown's Bristol Sport owns Bristol Bears Rugby, Bristol Flyers basketball and Bristol City FC. Wasps have Wasps Rugby and Wasps Netball. Leeds Rhinos have the rugby league club and the netball team. Saracens have the rugby team and Saracens Mavericks netball team. Rugby and netball seems to be a good combination. Quite a few top netball players are the wives of rugby players.
I think other sports teams clusters come from university sports, but also because these cities are main cities in their regions.


I don't know about the basketball team but the Bristol Rugby and Football teams aren't the same club. They might have the same owner and that founder might have created a corporate entity to market them together, but they're originally completely independent entities that have been brought together recently. It's not really what I'd call a multi sports club, like the Spanish ones where its the same colours etc. The rugby side only started playing at the football clubs stadium recently whilst the latter have been there for over a century.

There is an entity called Cardiff Athletics Club which originally had a Rugby, a Cricket and a Bowls section. They own the ground of the Cardiff Arms Park (Cardiff Blues Stadium). the Rugby wing - the Cardiff RFc side - subsequently split off and became independent, certainly by the time of regionalisation because they still own the Blues. But it's possible at one brief point in the 90s that Cardiff Athletics Club had a pro rugby team and amateur cricket and bowls sections

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 08:39

As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


Berlin is probably the only big city with top flight pro clubs in every sport. Just by teams in the top flights soccer (2), ice-hockey, handball, basketball, volleyball

Hamburg: once the city with the most teams, they have only a team in basketball and even this team was facing relegation when Covid-19 showed up
(handball bankrupt, ice-hockey dissolved, soccer teams relegated).(in soccer two in the 2nd Bundesliga)

Munich has soccer, ice-hockey, basketball and until recently volleyball in a suburb.

Cologne: has soccer, ice-hockey, and handball in a suburb.

Frankfurt: has soccer, ice-hockey and basketball

fun fact: all of those cities have rugby teams in the 1st or 2nd Bundesliga: Berlin3+3, Hamburg 1+1, Munich 0+3, Frankfurt 2+2 (close towns <15km included with Munich and Frankfurt), Cologne 0+1.

In general: (attendances from 18/19)
soccer: Every of the 40 cities with over 200k was at least present in the last 30 years in one of the two Bundesligas (with the sole exception of Bonn).
ice-hockey (DEL attend. 6.215): pro teams in most big cities + a lot of smaller towns
handball: (Bundesliga attendance: 4.807): mostly smaller cities with a weak soccer presence.
basketball:(BBL attendance: 4.336) a healthy mix of smaller cities but also most of the biggest ones
volleyball: (attendance: 1.424) mostly smaller cities or suburbs.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 09:46

Once I superposed German maps with all top-tier clubs from your main leagues and I was amazed by the variety of cities. There isn't much coexistence.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 09:52

RugbyLiebe wrote:As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


The county championship is a league with two divisions. Each of the teams is named after a a county, but the relationship is pretty loose sometimes. E.g. Glamorgan (the only Welsh county in the competition) try and market themselves as an All Wales side and play some games in North Wales. The counties cover nowhere near the whole of England and I assume they're actually responsible for cricket over a much wider area than the areas they nominally represent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Championship

I don't think most of the counties not in it even have teams, esp. the small Welsh ones like Radnorshire. There's not a lot of county identity for many counties.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 11:12

jservuk wrote:As an aside, Wakefield in England is a strange one.

About the same size as Leicester, great transport link, lots of people with well paid jobs live there (judging by the people getting off/on the trains to/from London). Nestled in that clutch of towns/cities that includes Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield.

But all they've got is a Rugby League team.


The rugby club went bust around 2000. It was a strong amateur team generally a good second division side but totally shit the bed in early professionalism and the members just gave up instead of reforming. West Hartlepool & Orrel were similar. A top club and they just gave up and now play in real amateur ranks.

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


The county championship is a league with two divisions. Each of the teams is named after a a county, but the relationship is pretty loose sometimes. E.g. Glamorgan (the only Welsh county in the competition) try and market themselves as an All Wales side and play some games in North Wales. The counties cover nowhere near the whole of England and I assume they're actually responsible for cricket over a much wider area than the areas they nominally represent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Championship

I don't think most of the counties not in it even have teams, esp. the small Welsh ones like Radnorshire. There's not a lot of county identity for many counties.


There is a separate minor counties circuit for the rest of England & I'd guess Wales. I think only the really minor ones like Rutland get subsumed into a bigger neighbour. Possibly Durham covers Northumbria too, not sure on that one.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 11:39

sk 88 wrote:
jservuk wrote:As an aside, Wakefield in England is a strange one.

About the same size as Leicester, great transport link, lots of people with well paid jobs live there (judging by the people getting off/on the trains to/from London). Nestled in that clutch of towns/cities that includes Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield.

But all they've got is a Rugby League team.


The rugby club went bust around 2000. It was a strong amateur team generally a good second division side but totally shit the bed in early professionalism and the members just gave up instead of reforming. West Hartlepool & Orrel were similar. A top club and they just gave up and now play in real amateur ranks.

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


The county championship is a league with two divisions. Each of the teams is named after a a county, but the relationship is pretty loose sometimes. E.g. Glamorgan (the only Welsh county in the competition) try and market themselves as an All Wales side and play some games in North Wales. The counties cover nowhere near the whole of England and I assume they're actually responsible for cricket over a much wider area than the areas they nominally represent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Championship

I don't think most of the counties not in it even have teams, esp. the small Welsh ones like Radnorshire. There's not a lot of county identity for many counties.


There is a separate minor counties circuit for the rest of England & I'd guess Wales. I think only the really minor ones like Rutland get subsumed into a bigger neighbour. Possibly Durham covers Northumbria too, not sure on that one.


The names are historic county names, it is a very old championship, but most of the teams are basically city teams.

Glamorgan = Cardiff
Gloucestershire = Bristol
Warwickshire = Birmingham
Lancashire = Manchester
Yorkshire = Leeds

etc.

Today these counties don't cover the same areas they once did, and one, Middlesex, doesn't exist anymore. Warwickshire, Lancashire and Surrey still exist but the cities now have their own counties so the cricket teams are based in a different county to their names.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 11:56

Armchair Fan wrote:Once I superposed German maps with all top-tier clubs from your main leagues and I was amazed by the variety of cities. There isn't much coexistence.


I reckon it is due to the fact, that 1871 Germany might have been founded as one country, but with many different kingdoms or monarchies there. The Bavarian king i.e. didn't resign until 1918. So Germany never ever had the centralism of other countries and a very strong history of strong cities. This can also be seen in Italy with also a lot of strong cities and a very late foundation of Italy as a country in modern terms. It seems, that the structure of the medevil Roman Empire made it easy for them to thrive and hindered unified national states for a long time.

Another reason is that after 1945 the regionalisation even got stronger, when Berlin was divided and Bonn was weak (so weak that they were the only city over 200k to not play soccer in one of the top divisions).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 13:34

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Once I superposed German maps with all top-tier clubs from your main leagues and I was amazed by the variety of cities. There isn't much coexistence.


I reckon it is due to the fact, that 1871 Germany might have been founded as one country, but with many different kingdoms or monarchies there. The Bavarian king i.e. didn't resign until 1918. So Germany never ever had the centralism of other countries and a very strong history of strong cities. This can also be seen in Italy with also a lot of strong cities and a very late foundation of Italy as a country in modern terms. It seems, that the structure of the medevil Roman Empire made it easy for them to thrive and hindered unified national states for a long time.

Another reason is that after 1945 the regionalisation even got stronger, when Berlin was divided and Bonn was weak (so weak that they were the only city over 200k to not play soccer in one of the top divisions).


Where does GFL fit in? From what I have seen they seem to have a decent following. Would American football be one of the six biggest spectator team sports in Germany?

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 13:56

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Where does GFL fit in? From what I have seen they seem to have a decent following. Would American football be one of the six biggest spectator team sports in Germany?


Well, American Football is definitely not a pro sport in Germany, therefore I didn't include it. But yeah, it might be one of the top 6 team sports. As a spectator sport probably tennis, biathlon, ski-jumping and maybe even ski-alpine should be way above overall

Attendance 2019 Change to 2018
Reguläre Saison Gruppe Nord 1.737 −1,4 %
Reguläre Saison Gruppe Süd 1.345 −3,3 %
Reguläre Saison GFL 1.541 −2,2 %
Play-offs 3.163 +6,7 %

Verein Reguläre Saison Play-offs
Schnittb Zu 2018 Heimspiele im Einzelnen Viertelfinale Halbfinale
New Yorker Lions Braunschweig 3.318 −3,1 % 3.216 3.186 5.316 3.133 2.903 2.756 2.716 2.902 3.648
Dresden Monarchs 3.086 +5,2 % 1.375 7.970 2.630 2.175 2.490 2.630 2.330 3.260 –
Frankfurt Universe 2.300 +26,8 % 1.786 3.055 2.797 1.988 2.173 2.168 2.130 3.117 –
Schwäbisch Hall Unicorns 1.876 −7,1 % 1.603 1.250 2.140 1.304 1.322 3.284 2.226 2.897 3.156
Kiel Baltic Hurricanes 1.864 −9,3 % 2.123 1.776 1.945 1.568 1.942 1.632 2.065 – –
Munich Cowboys 1.798 −4,2 % 1.562 1.979 1.682 1.638 1.917 1.912 1.898 – –
Stuttgart Scorpions 1.459 +5,2 % 950 980 1.124 2.196 1.260 1.600 2.100 – –
Hildesheim Invaders 1.437 +42,2 % 1.136 1.250 1.254 931 1.041 3.521 927 – –
Cologne Crocodiles 1.409 −5,4 % 1.723 1.116 2.226 1.091 1.117 1.268 1.319 – –
Potsdam Royals 1.067 −26,4 % 1.024 760 865 850 750 2.400 820 – –
Marburg Mercenaries 982 −2,3 % 1.250 720 730 1.120 1.174 845 1.033 – –
Düsseldorf Panther 933 −30,2 %a 950 1.195 680 878 512 795 1.523 – –
Allgäu Comets 911 −26,7 % 1.032 1.266 913 968 512 811 874 – –
Berlin Rebels 781 −13,5 % 1.138 768 566 488 463 923 1.123 – –
Ingolstadt Dukes 762 −13,2 % 1.050 1.158 650 503 520 800 650 – –
Kirchdorf Wildcats 673 −25,8 % 900 700 600 580 700 600 630 – –

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Fo ... eague_2019
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 14:05

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Professional multi-sport clubs don't exist in the United States specifically we don't have amateur arms on our professional clubs. There are very few multi-sport clubs that are even affordable and fewer that field athletic teams in competition in the US.

We do have owners that own multiple teams in a single city. But the teams are large corporations in their own right and it would be difficult to administer them all under one corporation.

LA and New York are very similar. Both have two of everything when it comes to Major Sports.

New York Market-
NFL- Giants and Jets
MLB- Yankees and Mets
NBA- Knicks and Nets
NHL- Rangers and Islanders
MLS- Red Bulls and NYCFC

LA Market-
NFL- Rams and Chargers
MLB- Dodgers and Angels
NBA- Lakers and Clippers
NHL- Kings and Ducks
MLS- Galaxy and LAFC

In each of these markets there are also minor league affiliates. But the closest thing to Multi-Sport clubs that operate under one entity are University athletics. New York doesn't really have a major Football playing school, but many of the universities are highly competitive in Basketball. Whereas Los Angeles has UCLA and USC as the largest institutions, but there are others in the market that compete at a Division 1 NCAA level, but don't have football teams.


You could add to NY the New Jersey Devils? It is NJ, but Red Bulls, Giants and Jets also play in NJ.

I've been always curious about NY if there is a logic behind fans. Usualy Jets, Mets, Nets and Islanders support each other? And in LA the same for Ducks, Angels... Clippers?


Ah, now is my time to shine!

There is a lot of cross over with Jets fans, Mets fans and even Islanders fans to a degree. The reason is because the Jets and Mets both played in Queens (Mets still do) and even shared Shea Stadium from 1964-1983. Even though the Jets have moved to NJ that connection still stands true because many of the people who grew up in Queens during that time have stuck around or moved to Long Island (the suburb right next to Queens). And the Islanders come into play for the same reasons, plus the fact that they had a ton of success in the 80s. They’ve now become pretty popular among younger Long Islanders but there are plenty of Rangers fans. There is no connection to the Nets because they played in New Jersey up until a few years ago so everyone in New York is a Knicks fan. That’s slowly changing because the Knicks have been hot garbage since the 90s.

There is a big crossover between Giants and Yankees but those teams have also been around for around 100+ years so they just have more fans in general. The Mets and Jets still have that underdog/new team feel to them since they both came up in the 60s.

And the Devils are my beloved Devils, the last remaining New Jersey sports team. I hope they never leave but New Jersey is a fragile market being pulled by 2 of the larger metro areas in the country. There are still many more Rangers fans in New Jersey despite the fact that the Devils had one of the more successful franchises from the 90s to 2010s and the Rangers were also hot garbage. This is because a lot of people in New Jersey moved here from New York in the 50s and 60s and kept their sports loyalties and passed them on to their kids. But Rangers suck.

Red Bulls and City follow some logic? I know they are too new and not that popular.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 14:37

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Professional multi-sport clubs don't exist in the United States specifically we don't have amateur arms on our professional clubs. There are very few multi-sport clubs that are even affordable and fewer that field athletic teams in competition in the US.

We do have owners that own multiple teams in a single city. But the teams are large corporations in their own right and it would be difficult to administer them all under one corporation.

LA and New York are very similar. Both have two of everything when it comes to Major Sports.

New York Market-
NFL- Giants and Jets
MLB- Yankees and Mets
NBA- Knicks and Nets
NHL- Rangers and Islanders
MLS- Red Bulls and NYCFC

LA Market-
NFL- Rams and Chargers
MLB- Dodgers and Angels
NBA- Lakers and Clippers
NHL- Kings and Ducks
MLS- Galaxy and LAFC

In each of these markets there are also minor league affiliates. But the closest thing to Multi-Sport clubs that operate under one entity are University athletics. New York doesn't really have a major Football playing school, but many of the universities are highly competitive in Basketball. Whereas Los Angeles has UCLA and USC as the largest institutions, but there are others in the market that compete at a Division 1 NCAA level, but don't have football teams.


You could add to NY the New Jersey Devils? It is NJ, but Red Bulls, Giants and Jets also play in NJ.

I've been always curious about NY if there is a logic behind fans. Usualy Jets, Mets, Nets and Islanders support each other? And in LA the same for Ducks, Angels... Clippers?


Ah, now is my time to shine!

There is a lot of cross over with Jets fans, Mets fans and even Islanders fans to a degree. The reason is because the Jets and Mets both played in Queens (Mets still do) and even shared Shea Stadium from 1964-1983. Even though the Jets have moved to NJ that connection still stands true because many of the people who grew up in Queens during that time have stuck around or moved to Long Island (the suburb right next to Queens). And the Islanders come into play for the same reasons, plus the fact that they had a ton of success in the 80s. They’ve now become pretty popular among younger Long Islanders but there are plenty of Rangers fans. There is no connection to the Nets because they played in New Jersey up until a few years ago so everyone in New York is a Knicks fan. That’s slowly changing because the Knicks have been hot garbage since the 90s.

There is a big crossover between Giants and Yankees but those teams have also been around for around 100+ years so they just have more fans in general. The Mets and Jets still have that underdog/new team feel to them since they both came up in the 60s.

And the Devils are my beloved Devils, the last remaining New Jersey sports team. I hope they never leave but New Jersey is a fragile market being pulled by 2 of the larger metro areas in the country. There are still many more Rangers fans in New Jersey despite the fact that the Devils had one of the more successful franchises from the 90s to 2010s and the Rangers were also hot garbage. This is because a lot of people in New Jersey moved here from New York in the 50s and 60s and kept their sports loyalties and passed them on to their kids. But Rangers suck.

Red Bulls and City follow some logic? I know they are too new and not that popular.


No, not really. Red Bulls naturally have more support in NJ because they’ve always been in NJ even when they were the MetroStars. There are also a ton of Colombians, Brazilians and Central Americans in that part of NJ so there is some extra interest from that soccer community but not as much as you’d think. NYCFC is bigger among people actually living in NY (state and city) because it’s a NY team. People in NYC have a bias against supporting NJ teams because they think it’s beneath them or way out in the suburbs. It’s actually easier to get to Red Bull arena than Yankee Stadium from most places in the city but requires you to purchase a separate metro fare even if you have an unlimited metro card.

Both teams are too new to have much of a fan base crossover but NYCFC is owned in part by the Yankees and plays at their stadium so they cross promote it to their existing fan base.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 14:40

Interesting. I once read NY Cosmos was more supported in Brooklyn/Queens. So soccer's geography changed.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 15:04

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Where does GFL fit in? From what I have seen they seem to have a decent following. Would American football be one of the six biggest spectator team sports in Germany?


Well, American Football is definitely not a pro sport in Germany, therefore I didn't include it. But yeah, it might be one of the top 6 team sports. As a spectator sport probably tennis, biathlon, ski-jumping and maybe even ski-alpine should be way above overall

Attendance 2019 Change to 2018
Reguläre Saison Gruppe Nord 1.737 −1,4 %
Reguläre Saison Gruppe Süd 1.345 −3,3 %
Reguläre Saison GFL 1.541 −2,2 %
Play-offs 3.163 +6,7 %

Verein Reguläre Saison Play-offs
Schnittb Zu 2018 Heimspiele im Einzelnen Viertelfinale Halbfinale
New Yorker Lions Braunschweig 3.318 −3,1 % 3.216 3.186 5.316 3.133 2.903 2.756 2.716 2.902 3.648
Dresden Monarchs 3.086 +5,2 % 1.375 7.970 2.630 2.175 2.490 2.630 2.330 3.260 –
Frankfurt Universe 2.300 +26,8 % 1.786 3.055 2.797 1.988 2.173 2.168 2.130 3.117 –
Schwäbisch Hall Unicorns 1.876 −7,1 % 1.603 1.250 2.140 1.304 1.322 3.284 2.226 2.897 3.156
Kiel Baltic Hurricanes 1.864 −9,3 % 2.123 1.776 1.945 1.568 1.942 1.632 2.065 – –
Munich Cowboys 1.798 −4,2 % 1.562 1.979 1.682 1.638 1.917 1.912 1.898 – –
Stuttgart Scorpions 1.459 +5,2 % 950 980 1.124 2.196 1.260 1.600 2.100 – –
Hildesheim Invaders 1.437 +42,2 % 1.136 1.250 1.254 931 1.041 3.521 927 – –
Cologne Crocodiles 1.409 −5,4 % 1.723 1.116 2.226 1.091 1.117 1.268 1.319 – –
Potsdam Royals 1.067 −26,4 % 1.024 760 865 850 750 2.400 820 – –
Marburg Mercenaries 982 −2,3 % 1.250 720 730 1.120 1.174 845 1.033 – –
Düsseldorf Panther 933 −30,2 %a 950 1.195 680 878 512 795 1.523 – –
Allgäu Comets 911 −26,7 % 1.032 1.266 913 968 512 811 874 – –
Berlin Rebels 781 −13,5 % 1.138 768 566 488 463 923 1.123 – –
Ingolstadt Dukes 762 −13,2 % 1.050 1.158 650 503 520 800 650 – –
Kirchdorf Wildcats 673 −25,8 % 900 700 600 580 700 600 630 – –

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Fo ... eague_2019


Thank you. Very interesting. It is a lot cheaper for basketball, netball or volleyball to be professional than for
American football. But I do think that American football is looking closer to being professional in Germany and being the second football code, rather than rugby.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 15:53

victorsra wrote:Interesting. I once read NY Cosmos was more supported in Brooklyn/Queens. So soccer's geography changed.


They were but the Cosmos don’t really exist anymore. They actually played more in the Bronx at Yankee stadium and Downing Stadium on Randall’s Island (which is now Icahn Stadium). IMO the biggest travesty is that we lost the 22k seat Downing Stadium and replaced it with a 5k seat stadium that is almost exclusively used for track and field and nothing else. No soccer, no rugby, nothing ese but the rare Olympic trials. Only a few soccer and lacrosse matches were held there in 2013/2014 but none since.

It really sucks because there is no proper stadium for any field sports in the city. The stadium fit 22k but was one of those old style stadiums that could’ve easily been rebuilt as a 35k+ seat stadium. There were a few international matches back in the 70s/80s and they had Gaelic football in the 90s. You can see pics of it here: http://www.terracetalk.com/photos/class ... n.jpg/view

For extra context, Randall’s Island is where almost all of the NYC based rugby clubs play their matches so having a stadium here would’ve been absolutely wonderful. We could play our games throughout the afternoon and head over to the stadium right after. *sigh* what could’ve been....

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 15:57

Situation for France !
Traditionnally, we have only one big club by city per sport. Usually, we missed good equipments. You have one good stadium per city. If there's a big brand new, the old one might have survived. Indoor arenas ... I'm jalous of our german & spanish neighbours. They aren't that well, many are small. Quite fortunately, it seems basketball has understood it needed bigger and more modern arenas, so it's changing little by little.
But in the other hand, more or less every cities from 50K at least has a quite correct stadium, at minima to L2 standards. So, for stadium sports, not that bad.
So usually, in big cities you have multisport. 2-3-4-5 ... it depends. In mid-sized cities, you have usually one strong stadium sport (rugby or football) + one strong arena sport, rarely more.


Talking about pro sports : we have two pro divisions in football (L1 / L2). Basically National is pro, but clubs don't have the official status. And you have many semi-pros under (N2, N3, ...). A few women's pro teams, mostly those from big men clubs.
Rugby : Top 14 & Pro D2. More and more clubs from Fédérale 1 become pro, and you have many semi-pros down to Fédérale 3. But as these leagues are very big, you have too fully amateur squads.
Basket : Two pro leagues, Pro A & Pro B. N1 semi-pro, and the LFB for women is pro too.
Handball : exactly the same as basketball (Starligue, Pro Ligue, D1 for women).
Volley ball : same again (Ligue A, Ligue B, Ligue A Féminine). Even if, being true, Ligue B ... well, mostly no public, pro clubs but finally very amateur, mostly relying on public subventions.
Ice hockey : Ligue Magnus is pro, D1, D2 are semi-pro.


By population !
Paris : you find Paris more or less everywhere. PSG with football & handball are the bests. You have Paris FC in football too (Ligue 2). It's more difficult for other indoor sports. Volley-ball was a traditionnally good, but had financial trouble. They came back in Ligue A this season and did well, but their arena is poor. In basketball, Paris main club is in Pro B. Huge project, which could use the new arena built for OG. And in rugby, Stade Français of course. One pro club in womens volley (Stade Français, now called Paris Saint Cloud), and Paris 92, playing in Issy Les Moulineaux and Paris in handball (mostly in Issy). Nothing in basket, and you have the very good PSG women in football.
But you have many clubs from the close Paris suburbs : Racing in Rugby, Nanterre & Levallois (now Metropolitans) in Basket, Ivry, Créteil & Tremblay in handball, Red Star (Saint-Ouen) & Créteil in soccer (National),
Only missing sport is Ice Hockey.


Marseille : here they are mad of football (OM). So ... very difficult for another sport to try to survive here. In fact, there's no other pro team having the Marseille banner. One is developping in ice hockey (D1) and might join Magnus in a close future.
But, Marseille agglomeration is big, and some clubs are with the Aix-Marseille/Provence banner. In rugby, Provence rugby plays in Aix (Pro D2). You have Pays d'Aix in handball & Istres Provence (Starligue), Aix is playing in the best handball arena of the country. Fos/Provence has been playing in Pro A in basket, but is now in Pro B (small club, small arena). And there's one small women volley ball club, in Venelles close to Aix. Finally, there are more Aix clubs than Marseille !


Lyon : Of course, you have OL in football, which had too one of the best Europeon women club. And you have La Duchère in National, trying to grow with an ambitious project. The LOU in Top 14, of course. And ASVEL in Basketball, the best french club, now owned by Tony Parker. They are based in Villeurbanne (Lyon suburbs), but will play their Euroleague games in Lyon in the future. (new arena built close to OL stadium). And they have a good women team too.



Toulouse : The Stade Toulousain playing in Top 14 is their main club, but the TFC playing in Ligue 1 has a long sporting tradition too. You have too a volley-club (Spacer's) playing in the biggest volley arena of France (Ligue A), and one handball club (Fenix) playing in starligue. And I forget the Toulouse XIII club.
Nothing pro in Basketball and ice hockey.


Nice : OGC Nice in Ligue 1. Since a few years, they have a club in Ligue A of volley-ball. Cavigal multisport club has a pro club in Proligue (D2 handball), whereas OGC Nice has a pro club in women handball league. And you have "Les Aigles" in ice hockey.
Basically, all arenas sport teams in Nice have poor infrastructures, they might all collapse due to this one day ...
Rugby is slowly growing, trying to come back pro. (Fed 1)


Nantes : 2 big clubs : FC Nantes in football) HC Nantes in handball. But Nantes is a complete city : you have Nantes Rezé in Ligue A (volley) for both men & women, one top women club in handball, and one club in Pro B (basket) & one in women league (basket). Ice hockey isn't pro, but in D1 and want to get promoted in the near future. Rugby is in the same situation with a club in fédérale 1.


Montpellier : maybe the most complete city of France. You have of course MHR in Top 14. MHSC in Ligue 1. MUC in Ligue A (volley), MHB in handball (one of the best clubs). In basket, nothing for mens, but they have a strong women team in Lattes, in Montpellier suburb. Only ice hockey is more in difficulties, being in D1 (semi pro).


Strasbourg : two big sports : RC Strasbourg for soccer (L1), SIG in basket (Pro A). There are one small club in Proligue (D2 handball), and one small club in Pro B (basket) in their suburb. Ice hockey has been for a long time in Magnus, but got relegated last year.
Nothing in volley-ball (they were in Pro B in the past but collapsed).


Bordeaux : two big sports : Girondins in football; UBB in rugby. There are too the Boxers in Ice Hockey, and one very small club in Ligue B (volley) in Saint-Jean-d'Illac. Same in women handball, very small club in Mérignac.
Nothing in basket.


Lille : football, football, football ... LOSC in Ligue 1. One good volley-ball club in their suburb (Tourcoing, Ligue A), one small women VB club in Marcq en Baroeul. In basket, one small club in Pro B and one in Villeneuve-d'Ascq for women.
Nothing in ice hockey & handball. Rugby was closed to Pro D2, and now Marcq en Baroeul is growing and will try to get promoted within a few years.


Now we are entering smaller areas.
Rennes : same as Lille, football. Stade Rennais is very strong. But a few more sports exist : there's a VB club in Ligue A, Cesson-Rennes longuely played in Starligue (handball) but has been relegated last season.
Nothing in basket or ice hockey. Rugby in Fed 1.


Reims : Stade de Reims was one of top classic euro clubs. Now it's a mid table Ligue 1 club. There have been a merger between Châlons & Reims in basket, clubs are shared between both cities and are in Pro A. Ice hockey was strong in the past, but collapsed.


Saint-Etienne : all for Les Verts (AS Saint-Etienne, Ligue 1). There's one small basket club in Pro B, in Saint-Chamond (suburb). They were pro in rugby for one season if I'm not mistaking.


Toulon : RC Toulon in Top 14. But SC Toulon in football was strong in the 90's, now it's only in National (and will be relegated). One pro club in women handball.


Grenoble : The rugby club is a bit between two worlds, too good for Pro D2, not enough for Top 14. Other major sport is ice hockey, one of the best club of the country. Football is now in Ligue 2.


Dijon : One football club in Ligue 1, not very strong. Other major club is JDA, playing in Pro A. There's too a handball club, alternating between Star & Proligue. Ice hockey has longuely been in Magnus, but collapsed.


Angers : football is in Ligue 1 since a decade approx. Other major club in "Les Ducs", in ice hockey, playing in a brand new arena.


Nîmes : football is in Ligue 1. Other major club is USAM Nîmes in Handball (Starligue). Rugby is in Fed 1.


Clermont-Ferrand : ASM is one of the best Top 14 club, of course. Football is in Ligue 2 (never reached Ligue 1). There's one small VB women club and one small basket ball club in Pro B, shared with Vichy.


Le Mans : 24h ! Outside of motorsport, their football club is in Ligue 2, after being for a long time in Ligue 1 before collapsing ... They have a successful basket team too, playing in Pro A.


Brest : football is back in Ligue 1, the club is alternating between L1 & L2. They have a very good & popular women handball team. Ice hockey has been for a long time in Magnus but is now in D1.


Tours : a singular city, as Volley-Ball is their most popular sport. Their club is clearly the best in France. Football has been for a long time in Ligue 2, but collapsed. There's a minor women handball club. Ice hockey is quite popular, but only in D1 not in Magnus.


Amiens : football is in Ligue 1 since 2 seasons (will their be relagated ? who knows...). But the other major sport is ice hockey, with one of the best french clubs. There are a bunch of good semi pro teams in handball & VB, but there's no arena to succeed in pro leagues...


Limoges : rugby was a tradition, but this time is over. The major team is the CSP, which has won Euroleague in 1993 (basket). Now it's still one of the best french clubs. There's a developping handball team, which will play starligue next season.


Perpignan : The Dragons playing in english superleague & the USAP in Pro D2 (alternating with Top 14) are the two major clubs of the cities. No place for another sport with that !


Orléans : football is in Ligue 2, but major sport is basket ball. A big arena is in construction to help the club to grow. There's too one minor handball team in proligue (D2) in Saran & one in Fleury for women.


Metz : two strong clubs. FC Metz is football (alternating between Ligue 1 & 2); and Metz Handball, one of the most successful and popular women team of the country, playing handball.


Rouen : ice hockey is the most popular sport. They have won many titles these last season. But there are many other pro sports. Football first, where it's a bit a mess between Quevilly-Rouen & FC Rouen (National, after Ligue 2). Rugby since this season is in Pro D2. Basketball is playing in a modern arena and is very ambitious. They are now in Pro B.


Mulhouse : one of the best women sport club in France is there, playing volley-ball. Then you have "Les Scorpions", in ice hockey.


Caen : football is the main sport, playing for a long time in Ligue 1 (now in Ligue 2). If I'm not telling mistakes, there's a bunch of good semi pro teams in indoor, but as for Amiens, there's no good place for that. Ice hockey is very popular and is a stronghold in D1 (best semi pro level).


Nancy : football is the main sport, alternating between Ligue 1 & 2. There's too a minor VB club in Ligue B, and one minor team in women VB. They have a good team of Proligue (D2 handball). The SLUC was strong in basket, but is now in Pro B - no doubt they will back in Pro A soon.


Poitiers : As Tours, Volley-Ball is the main sport. Arena might be a bit too old ... there's a basket ball team, which has been in Pro A for a few seasons and is now in Pro B. They will have a brand new arena soon.


Dunkerque : football isn't the most popular. They are in National, and will be promoted in Ligue 2 next season. Here it's more arena sports, with BCM Gravelines in basket (Pro A); and a strong handball club in Starligue. Ice hockey has a brand new arena and is semi-pro (D1), might want to join Magnus soon.


Béziers : rugby was very strong, but is now in Pro D2. Could become better with new investors arriving ... Football is in National, has been in Ligue 2 recently if I remember correctly. One good women VB club too.


Pau : rugby is the main sport, with the club in Top 14. Football will be promoted in Ligue 2, but isn't very popular. The other major team is in basketball, with the Elan Bearnais, one of the best in France. There's one small proligue handball club too.


Cannes : a stronghold of VB. One good club for men, but the best club is the women one. And moreover, there's another pro women club in Le Cannet !


Ajaccio had two pro clubs in football, AC Ajaccio & Gazélec. AC is now in Ligue 2, Gazélec in National. Gazélec is very strong in volley-ball, being a stronghold of Ligue A.


Valence : Roval in Pro D2, one small club in proligue.


Narbonne : One club of rugby now in Fédérale 1, but too one volley-ball club in Ligue A. Played in a poor arena, but has now a brand new one.


Cholet : one small club in national. One team in ice hockey in D1. But mostly, one big club in Basket.


Saint-Quentin : they have known better time, but a Pro B club in Basket; and a Ligue B club in Volley.


Bayonne : Main rugby club in Top 14. Biarritz in Pro D2, Anglet in Fed 1. Anglet is in Ligue Magnus in ice hockey too. (Biarritz and Anglet in "suburbs")


Bourg en Bresse : now in Fed 1 in rugby, but for a few time in Pro D2. One basketball club in Pro A. Football has been pro too.



Then, you have some one sport mad cities.
Le Havre, with a club in Ligue 2. Popularity is not anymore what it was, but still strong. Similar, you have Troyes, Auxerre, Sochaux (in Montbéliard suburbs), Lorient ... and strong tradition of football in Northern France (Valenciennes, Lens).
La Rochelle, rugby mad; as many cities in south-west (Montauban, Castres,
Antibes, Roanne, Périgueux (Boulazac), basketball.
Bourges, very strong women basketball.
Boulogne-sur-Mer, with basketball (Le Portel in Pro A, Boulogne longuely in Pro A & B). (football was pro too)
Chaumont, small city mad of volley-ball.
Mountain cities fan of ice hockey : Chamonix, Gap, Briançon, ... (Morzine, Villard de Lans, Megève, ... in minor leagues)
And south-west rugby tradition (Montauban, Castres, Albi, Agen, Brive, Carcassonne, Mont de Marsan, Dax, ...).

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby jonny24 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 16:04

Toronto is up there.

All 3 "major" sports that are in Canada:

Toronto Maple Leafs NHL
Toronto Raptors NBA
Toronto Blue Jays MLB

2 "almost" major league :

Toronto Argonauts CFL
Toronto FC MLS

Smaller teams
Toronto Arrows MLR
Toronto Wolfpack SL
Toronto Rock NLL
York9 FC CPL
Raptors 905 G-league

Then you get into universities, junior hockey etc.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 17:54

Chester-Donnelly wrote:The names are historic county names, it is a very old championship, but most of the teams are basically city teams.

Glamorgan = Cardiff
Gloucestershire = Bristol
Warwickshire = Birmingham
Lancashire = Manchester
Yorkshire = Leeds

etc.

Today these counties don't cover the same areas they once did, and one, Middlesex, doesn't exist anymore. Warwickshire, Lancashire and Surrey still exist but the cities now have their own counties so the cricket teams are based in a different county to their names.


Warwickshire, Lancashire & Yorkshire are very much not city teams in any sense at all. I would say that none of the teams are "city teams", they all draw support from everywhere in their county. Lancashire are in no way at all a Manchester team, their most famous current player is from Burnley and the previous one is from Preston!! Lancashire played more than half their games in Liverpool as recently as 2011.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 18:03

I read the new English cricket league The Hundred intends to work with city-named teams.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 18:57

sk 88 wrote:
jservuk wrote:As an aside, Wakefield in England is a strange one.

About the same size as Leicester, great transport link, lots of people with well paid jobs live there (judging by the people getting off/on the trains to/from London). Nestled in that clutch of towns/cities that includes Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield.

But all they've got is a Rugby League team.


The rugby club went bust around 2000. It was a strong amateur team generally a good second division side but totally shit the bed in early professionalism and the members just gave up instead of reforming. West Hartlepool & Orrel were similar. A top club and they just gave up and now play in real amateur ranks.

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:As you mentioned cricket in your opening post. Is there even a league or is it "just" a provincial competition?


The county championship is a league with two divisions. Each of the teams is named after a a county, but the relationship is pretty loose sometimes. E.g. Glamorgan (the only Welsh county in the competition) try and market themselves as an All Wales side and play some games in North Wales. The counties cover nowhere near the whole of England and I assume they're actually responsible for cricket over a much wider area than the areas they nominally represent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Championship

I don't think most of the counties not in it even have teams, esp. the small Welsh ones like Radnorshire. There's not a lot of county identity for many counties.


There is a separate minor counties circuit for the rest of England & I'd guess Wales. I think only the really minor ones like Rutland get subsumed into a bigger neighbour. Possibly Durham covers Northumbria too, not sure on that one.


Indeed there is, and there is a Welsh team, with the super catchy name "Wales Minor Counties". It represents everywhere in Wales except Glamorgan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales_M ... icket_Club

Apparently in the past Monmouthshire, Carmarthenshire and Denbighshire have had minor counties cricket teams, but not since the 1930s.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 19:46

victorsra wrote:I read the new English cricket league The Hundred intends to work with city-named teams.


Yes they will but I have no idea why. The cities are:
Manchester, Leeds, Nottingham, Birmingham, Cardiff, Southampton, and Lords and the Oval in London. It's a good geographical spread but my region (South West England) doesn't have a team.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 10:16

The teams are:
Manchester Originals
Northern Superchargers
Birmingham Phoenix
Trent Rockets
Welsh Fire
London Spirit
Oval Invincibles
Southern Brave

So three have city names, one country, two directions, one stadium name and one river.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 11:00

sk 88 wrote:The teams are:
Manchester Originals
Northern Superchargers
Birmingham Phoenix
Trent Rockets
Welsh Fire
London Spirit
Oval Invincibles
Southern Brave

So three have city names, one country, two directions, one stadium name and one river.


Warwickshire already call themselves Birmingham Bears for T20. For the other teams this is the first time they are using non-county names. I'm not sure what the criteria is. They need to have a new name that doesn't contain the name of the county or an animal?

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 11:17

Chester-Donnelly wrote: But I do think that American football is looking closer to being professional in Germany and being the second football code, rather than rugby.


The NFL Europa had in its last season a record 20k average with 5 German teams out of 6. It wasn't sustainable apparently so I see no way how American Football will ever be sustainable at all.
Apart from that, there is no word for football code in Germany (you can build one easily with our famous composita structures with Fußballsport).
Football is soccer. Germans don't understand that football is a sport family in English with the speaker chosing the sport he likes the most to call it football.

So much said, AF has been the second biggest football code since the day a regular competition appeared. The first German final drew 4k in 1978 and in 1979 the average was 600 visitors, going up to 11k for the final in 1981. I doubt any German rugby final has done so good in the last 50 years.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Figaro » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 12:00

sk 88 wrote:The teams are:
Manchester Originals
Northern Superchargers
Birmingham Phoenix
Trent Rockets
Welsh Fire
London Spirit
Oval Invincibles
Southern Brave

So three have city names, one country, two directions, one stadium name and one river.


Some of those are cringeworthy. Manchester Originals sounds like a variety of toffee. Trent rockets sounds like a train, Northern superchargers like a government scheme to boost a local economy

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