Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Multi-sport Cities

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 02:26

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Basketball in Britain has a low social status, I think partly due to its association with the YMCA (somewhere poor intercity kids go) and partly because we didn't invent it. Every one of the men's Great Britain basketball team players is a black Londoner, which is a tiny demographic of the British population. The women's Great Britain basketball team is more diverse and more successful than the men's team but they suffer from the entire sport having a low cache in Britain and being overshadowed by netball.

Robert Archibald, Daniel Clark...


Robert Archibald is dead. Daniel Clark is still a Londoner.

You can choose to not believe me, but I can assure you basketball in Britain has a low social cache and the players are predominantly Londoners and black, which is both a symptom and a cause of the rest of the country not being engaged in the sport. You can always try to find exceptions, but what does that achieve?


Armchair Fan I would be interested in hearing your analysis of why there is a lack of interest in Britain of basketball. We all played it in school and our women's team is quite good. Those are 2 reasons why we should be interested, but we're not. "Britain doesn't care about sports it didn't invent and doesn't control" isn't analysis. If that's true, why is it true?

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 04:09

In fact that is an interesting question indeed. Which non-British sport GB/England is good at? It is quite normal to think there is a preference for local sports, you have invented too many, many options.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 06:52

victorsra wrote:In fact that is an interesting question indeed. Which non-British sport GB/England is good at? It is quite normal to think there is a preference for local sports, you have invented too many, many options.


We can't be good at something we're not interested in. But basketball and ice hockey come the closest to being foreign sports we have some interest in and some level of success.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby jservuk » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 11:51

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Basketball in Britain has a low social status, I think partly due to its association with the YMCA (somewhere poor intercity kids go) and partly because we didn't invent it. Every one of the men's Great Britain basketball team players is a black Londoner, which is a tiny demographic of the British population. The women's Great Britain basketball team is more diverse and more successful than the men's team but they suffer from the entire sport having a low cache in Britain and being overshadowed by netball.

Robert Archibald, Daniel Clark...


Robert Archibald is dead. Daniel Clark is still a Londoner.

You can choose to not believe me, but I can assure you basketball in Britain has a low social cache and the players are predominantly Londoners and black, which is both a symptom and a cause of the rest of the country not being engaged in the sport. You can always try to find exceptions, but what does that achieve?


Armchair Fan I would be interested in hearing your analysis of why there is a lack of interest in Britain of basketball. We all played it in school and our women's team is quite good. Those are 2 reasons why we should be interested, but we're not. "Britain doesn't care about sports it didn't invent and doesn't control" isn't analysis. If that's true, why is it true?


Difficult to say, but perhaps because in Britain we are spoilt for choice regarding popular sports. Football, Cricket, Rugby, Tennis, Squash, Badminton Running, Cycling, Netball, Hockey will claim the vast majority of interested followers and participants. In other countries, the domination of football is even greater than in UK, so perhaps this conversely means there is room for a sport such as Basketball to grow. Basketball is easy to understand, with a similar flow as football.

In the UK, I agree with Chester that Basketball has a niche ultra urban following, and even then it is just NBA. Basketball outside the NBA does not exist. The game times mean to be a dedicated fan you will be spending late nights staying up to watch, so maybe it's not going to appeal to average working man/woman, and even for avid teenage fans once they get into the world of work its easy to lose track.

Growing up in the UK the only Basketball on TV was the occasional Harlem Globetrotters show.

It's interesting to note as well that you will hear football commentators and pundits label a football game that is too open as "like a game of Basketball", not meant as a compliment. This is indicative of an attitude in the British sports fraternity towards Basketball in particular. There is a similar snobbish attitude towards American Football too.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 14:25

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:In fact that is an interesting question indeed. Which non-British sport GB/England is good at? It is quite normal to think there is a preference for local sports, you have invented too many, many options.


We can't be good at something we're not interested in. But basketball and ice hockey come the closest to being foreign sports we have some interest in and some level of success.

That's what I meant, it is quite normal that as you invented many sports others won't interest that much.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 19:16

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:In fact that is an interesting question indeed. Which non-British sport GB/England is good at? It is quite normal to think there is a preference for local sports, you have invented too many, many options.


We can't be good at something we're not interested in. But basketball and ice hockey come the closest to being foreign sports we have some interest in and some level of success.

That's what I meant, it is quite normal that as you invented many sports others won't interest that much.

Perhaps most societies invented that many sports but didn't do as good a job formalizing them and spreading them around.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 23:15

All societies had games, but the idea of regulating them, transforming games in sports, with institutions, is a result of British Industrial Revolution and the mentality change of that time. It is not random, it is a product of their 18th-19th century, which had a deep impact in the whole world, of course. Others, of course, followed this idea and other sports were created in other places and nationalist sentiment elsewhere made some local games become sports. However, the idea of following what the British or French cultures, the powers of the 19th century (therefore, playing their sports) was attractive everywhere, as people wanted to show them "modern". The physical education culture also spread in different ways in each country. By the 1930s, most countries already had their preferences well established. Olympic Games, international tours, and world championships were there creating new strong meanings for sports. There is a vast literature about this.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 07:27

I think first there was the Physical activity/ gymnastics movement in Germany (Turnvater Jahn), which started around 1810 (very German like already by forming clubs). Very interesting this movement was always egalitarian and against any form of hierarchical society and combined gymnastics with swimming and games ( it was also racist and nationalist to not leave the bad sides out). 1818 this movement had already 12.000 registered members.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 10:51

On basketball it depends what we mean. By teams playing it is probably as popular as rugby, it must be close. As a spectator sport the BBL have never really been promoted properly and was quite late on it getting going. Most spectator sports are handed down from families and there is not much of that for BBL clubs. NBA seems well supported.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 14:01

RugbyLiebe wrote:I think first there was the Physical activity/ gymnastics movement in Germany (Turnvater Jahn), which started around 1810 (very German like already by forming clubs). Very interesting this movement was always egalitarian and against any form of hierarchical society and combined gymnastics with swimming and games ( it was also racist and nationalist to not leave the bad sides out). 1818 this movement had already 12.000 registered members.

Yes, all part of the "Age of Revolution" context.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 14:30

About local sports, apart from Futsal, Brazil has at least 3 sports codified here: Futevôlei (Footvolley), Biribol (Water Volley) and Peteca. But footvolley and biribol were born from volleyball and peteca is a mix of indigenous sport and volleyball.

Footvolley was created in 1965 is well developed, with leagues, international competitions and all. Footvolley is quite popular in Rio with many fasmous former soccer players involved. It is popular to develop soccer skills.

Biribol is a volleyball version of water polo also created in 1968. It is more played in smaller cities of São Paulo state. It is more recreative, but it is part of the Jogos Abertos do Interior (São Paulo State Games, a multisports "Olympics").

Peteca is a Brazilian Indigenous game (Tupian origin) that was transformed in a sport (like what happened with lacrosse). It is more played in the state of Minas Gerais. The rules were written in 1973. It is basicaly a shuttlecock sport, like badminton, but with the hands. It has the net, probably inspired by volleyball, but it is in fact derived from Indigenous games with the shuttlecock. There is now even an International federation, with federations in Europe and Latin America.

Footvolley

Peteca

Biribol
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby theDarky » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 17:44

victorsra wrote:About local sports, apart from Futsal, Brazil has at least 3 sports codified here: Futevôlei (Footvolley), Biribol (Water Volley) and Peteca. But footvolley and biribol were born from volleyball and peteca is a mix of indigenous sport and volleyball.

Footvolley was created in 1965 is well developed, with leagues, international competitions and all. Footvolley is quite popular in Rio with many fasmous former soccer players involved. It is popular to develop soccer skills.

Biribol is a volleyball version of water polo also created in 1968. It is more played in smaller cities of São Paulo state. It is more recreative, but it is part of the Jogos Abertos do Interior (São Paulo State Games, a multisports "Olympics").

Peteca is a Brazilian Indigenous game (Tupian origin) that was transformed in a sport (like what happened with lacrosse). It is more played in the state of Minas Gerais. The rules were written in 1973. It is basicaly a shuttlecock sport, like badminton, but with the hands. It has the net, probably inspired by volleyball, but it is in fact derived from Indigenous games with the shuttlecock. There is now even an International federation, with federations in Europe and Latin America.

Footvolley

Peteca

Biribol


thanks for the discover

Peteca remembers me Basque pelota (played in France and Spain)

The most famous version is the Cesta Punta/Long Chistera version. (we can see it in the Miami Vice opening)

By the way, the term "Chistera" is used in french rugby to symbolize a pass you made behind you

a good example here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkLcMTaJJOk

I wonder if spanish rugby players use the term too

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 15:52

Fun fact: handball was invented in Uruguay by Antonio Valeta in 1918 under the name Balón (ball), independent from European influences.

The Uruguayan and Argentine balón federations were founded in the early 1920s. When handball was added to the 1936 Olympics, the federations adopted those regulations.

https://www.efdeportes.com/efd125/balon ... eacion.htm

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 16:44

that's new to me, amazing! thank you for sharing
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 20:51

News relating to the original subject: Manchester Giants basketball team will be moving to the National Basketball Performance Centre in Manchester for the forthcoming season.

https://gb.basketball/2020/07/24/giant- ... s-to-nbpc/

They will share the venue with Manchester Thunder netball team.

This means Manchester now has top division sports teams in football (Manchester United and Manchester City), cricket (Lancashire), netball (Manchester Thunder) and basketball (Manchester Giants).

Elsewhere, Coventry will not be home to a professional football club this year. Talks between Wasps and Coventry City FC have broken down. Coventry City FC will be staying at Birmingham City's ground next season, not moving to the Ricoh Arena. Coventry will therefore continue to have top division sports teams only in rugby (Wasps), netball (Wasps) and ice hockey (Coventry Blaze).

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 07:48

NaBUru38 wrote:Fun fact: handball was invented in Uruguay by Antonio Valeta in 1918 under the name Balón (ball), independent from European influences.

The Uruguayan and Argentine balón federations were founded in the early 1920s. When handball was added to the 1936 Olympics, the federations adopted those regulations.

https://www.efdeportes.com/efd125/balon ... eacion.htm


What are the differences? I saw that you are allowed to carry the ball like you carry a plate, do you need to dribble?

For those who have never seen a field handball game (I haven't despite my uncle having played it until the 1960ies).
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 08:06

Interesting to see handball as a kind of football. I think it's a shame that form didn't survive. It was clearly very popular.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby jservuk » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 19:30

Chester-Donnelly wrote:News relating to the original subject: Manchester Giants basketball team will be moving to the National Basketball Performance Centre in Manchester for the forthcoming season.

https://gb.basketball/2020/07/24/giant- ... s-to-nbpc/

They will share the venue with Manchester Thunder netball team.

This means Manchester now has top division sports teams in football (Manchester United and Manchester City), cricket (Lancashire), netball (Manchester Thunder) and basketball (Manchester Giants).

Elsewhere, Coventry will not be home to a professional football club this year. Talks between Wasps and Coventry City FC have broken down. Coventry City FC will be staying at Birmingham City's ground next season, not moving to the Ricoh Arena. Coventry will therefore continue to have top division sports teams only in rugby (Wasps), netball (Wasps) and ice hockey (Coventry Blaze).


Just on Coventry, I read that CCFC will move to a newly built stadium at Warwick University, so ending any reliance on Wasps. Hopefully they can manage that properly and not lose that one to another Rugby club.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 19:42

Whilst this the most credible proposal to date I am still sceptical it will ever happen.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby victorsra » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 20:35

This is bad for Wasps, right? Less opportunities to make money with its stadium.
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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 20:48

victorsra wrote:This is bad for Wasps, right? Less opportunities to make money with its stadium.


I think it's bad for Wasps. Wasps and CCFC sharing a stadium makes financial sense. It would be better if they were under the same ownership like Bristol City FC and Bristol Bears. CCFC building another stadium seems unnecessary but there aren't that many clubs sharing a stadium which makes me think that isn't an easy relationship to manage.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby jservuk » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 23:59

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:This is bad for Wasps, right? Less opportunities to make money with its stadium.


I think it's bad for Wasps. Wasps and CCFC sharing a stadium makes financial sense. It would be better if they were under the same ownership like Bristol City FC and Bristol Bears. CCFC building another stadium seems unnecessary but there aren't that many clubs sharing a stadium which makes me think that isn't an easy relationship to manage.


Among the arguments CCFC are using is that the quality of the pitch at Birmingham compared to at Wasps was a key factor in their success. Perhaps a sign then that this could be a source of tension.

I doubt it is that bad for Wasps - loss of income from football sure but they'll have probably planned for such an eventuality. Plus, they've gone without income from football matches for a year anyway so they are no worse off.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 29 Jul 2020, 02:12

victorsra wrote:This is bad for Wasps, right? Less opportunities to make money with its stadium.


Not really. CCFC has been nothing but a nuisance to Wasps. Wasps have wasted good cash fighting Sisu over the ownership rights to the stadium which they had previously vacated when they didn't pay the Council rent.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 29 Jul 2020, 06:35

So a soccer club doesn't pay rent to a publicly owned stadium. The stadium is then sold from the city counsil to a rugby club to reduce costs as the soccer club didn't pay their dues. After that the soccer club wants a public (!) university to build on public (!) ground a new stadium which needs public funds to create new train connections. Sounds like a plan. Or CCFC wants to get a price for being the most impudent soccer club in Britain.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Multi-sport Cities

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 29 Jul 2020, 09:35

This is bad for Wasps because they are making big losses and this would be the most sustainable way to plug that gap.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport ... a-17909775

In an ideal world they would be under the same ownership but unless CCFC go into administration I don't see that ever happening. These two clubs seem to be enemies.

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