Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Posts: 11
Joined: Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 05:19
National Flag:
Channel IslandsChannel Islands

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 09:43

Werner wrote:
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:German-rugby.de reported this
Not really. Sounds like 'alternate' news and might not pass a fact check properly.


Thanks Werner. Goessgen's resignation is an alternative fact, I wish you were right.

I'm also grateful for anybody who would actually change his or her own opinion. Based on a fact check. Can't be taken for granted nowadays.

Posts: 54
Joined: Mon, 06 Jul 2015, 12:03
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Werner » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 11:08

Kim Lombard wrote:
Werner wrote:
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:German-rugby.de reported this
Not really. Sounds like 'alternate' news and might not pass a fact check properly.
Thanks Werner. Goessgen's resignation is an alternative fact, I wish you were right.
Sorry Kim. This is not reported in the article. The article clearly states, that Mr. Goessgen resigned as chairman. He never was chairman, he was a member of the board. Secondly Mr. Molzahn is a candidate for the position as chairman, and therefore no potential successor for Mr. Goessgen.
For me that are already two 'alternate' facts in one article ...

Posts: 25
Joined: Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 16:26
National Flag:
GreenlandGreenland

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 12:42

Kim Lombard wrote:(To "Sarry") But this did not quite answer V's question ...


Sometimes I am missing somebody like Matthias Hase in this thread. All this mollycoddling is a bit tiring. He surely is not a phlegmatic kind of type.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 16:01

Vultureblack wrote:
Kim Lombard wrote:(To "Sarry") But this did not quite answer V's question ...


Sometimes I am missing somebody like Matthias Hase in this thread. All this mollycoddling is a bit tiring. He surely is not a phlegmatic kind of type.


You're sure? It's aliases. Ideal to let rip. Speak your mind.

Posts: 25
Joined: Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 16:26
National Flag:
GreenlandGreenland

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Wed, 12 Aug 2020, 17:58

If I think about it. He is all about low German („platt“ right?) But those traces of English (as the idiom of the Saxons, Jutes, and Angles) in that blend are well short of the critical mass (in order not to write exclusively in German.)

Which is good. As every bit helps in Germany. And that something is there like Totalrugby or Meinsportradio should be appreciated. Explaining leading edge rugby in German (the marvels of what’s happing in New Zealand, Champions Cup and the like.) Content in English, no matter how enticing, is even more unlikely to suck in the people in such a football dominated country. If it was just left to the guys who have been there and done it but write in English.

Posts: 25
Joined: Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 16:26
National Flag:
GreenlandGreenland

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Thu, 13 Aug 2020, 12:10

What is more to the point [of where the problem is:]

How people present themselves is a bit reminiscent of the polarization of the USA. Ok, no actor in charge can kill somebody in the street and still be liked by his followers. But how about open debate, how about seeing the pros and cons of an alternative under discussion? Accepting a dilemma,

But there are people who attack “the DRV” whenever there are bad news. Those typically also see the successes of the sevens team at best as mixed. .

The other camp is calling any criticism as biased negativity, failings of the federation as lack of own initiative and see what was strived for with Dr. Wild's money as a vain attempt, devoid of a proper grounding. The controversies of that time even traumatized some, a further reason to better sweep conflicts of interests, unavoidable when ambitious individuals interact (let alone institutions at various layers,) under the carpet for the sake of harmony.

Nothing personal, but this lack of freedom is evident in this thread. Would there be anybody who would both, see the faults of Robin Stalker and at the same time criticise Jens Poff (for example?) Would somebody productively agitated like Rugbyliebe nevertheless accept facts if that would imply changing an opinion / parts of the own world view?
Last edited by Vultureblack on Fri, 14 Aug 2020, 05:20, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Aug 2020, 12:22

Vultureblack wrote:Would somebody productively agitated like Rugbyliebe nevertheless accept facts if that would imply changing an opinion / parts of the own world view?


To avoid misunderstandings, what exactly do you mean by "productively agitated"?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 11
Joined: Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 05:19
National Flag:
Channel IslandsChannel Islands

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Fri, 14 Aug 2020, 09:53

Fair question, surely deserves an answer.

Literally:
"productive" is obvious in your case. In terms of contributions to a variety of threads, evident at first sight, you are surely not a "one trick pony." You contribute.
"agitated" is probably more where you sense an unwelcome innuendo. What is obvious here is, that nobody in his/her right mind would call you indifferent.

I am coming from a different forum. But in any of these I would maintain: it does not matter whether you like to present your self as Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, diplomatic poise is just a bonus. Up to how one likes to present him- or herself.
Key is that you get in. Anything but indifference. At worst, silence

Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 14 Aug 2020, 10:48

Kim Lombard wrote:Fair question, surely deserves an answer.

Literally:
"productive" is obvious in your case. In terms of contributions to a variety of threads, evident at first sight, you are surely not a "one trick pony." You contribute.
"agitated" is probably more where you sense an unwelcome innuendo. What is obvious here is, that nobody in his/her right mind would call you indifferent.

I am coming from a different forum. But in any of these I would maintain: it does not matter whether you like to present your self as Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, diplomatic poise is just a bonus. Up to how one likes to present him- or herself.
Key is that you get in. Anything but indifference. At worst, silence


My overall constant is, that I trust the persons in charge until I am proved wrong. This off course happened a lot in the last years :D
The more, as I am yet to see concepts from anyone taking another position as the persons in charge. Once that happens I have no problem whatsoever to change my view. In general I am a bit sceptical about Heidelberg or Hanover officials, as those places failed to really expand the sport in the last 60 years. Expansion of grass roots is a key thing for me. That doesn't mean that there can't be great concepts out of those strongholds and I wouldn't support them.

I was very much for the Wild setup, but saw the problems totally ignoring the importance of the smart setup of 7s to get independent money from the state. With the distance of some years now, I think the biggest problem was Wild not having the most competent people to direct his project (outside of the rugby pitch itself that is) and he never bothered to get sanctions through elections (very important in the German Vereinsstruktur, which is very democratic and for a right reason). Also the Heidelberg situation with a lot of strong clubs fighting over relatively small resources of players with not much room to grow the sport and a lot of jealousy between those clubs did its thing. Stalker's time can be seen as an unexpected catastrophy.

Atm the same problems arise. Is the president Hees competent enough? I hope so, but I've read nothing yet which other doable solutions are even possible. At least he stood up in this situation and tries to save the Union. This doesn't mean questions shouldn't be asked, but strictly on concepts not about persons. (another big problem in rugby)

Overall I am a big fan of rugby (which my user name implies), who does his grunt work in grassroots week in week out, but also enjoys seeing my country play on the highest possible level. I would always prefer watching a German XVs or 7s team over any other rugby matches anytime. I also think, that rugby has a bubble problem which is confirmed by seeing the success a club can have, when it tries hard to burst this bubble and reach out for new target groups. And a solution to this is the Bavarian way of simply going out and found as many new clubs as possible. On a German level, I think we simply need to fund the DRV better.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Fri, 14 Aug 2020, 13:50

RugbyLiebe wrote:
.. Once that happens I have no problem whatsoever to change my view.


Think you may cut the cheese Kim
@Vultureblack: Give Rugbyliebe a break. Why not give him a chance?

Like:
The question to Rugbyliebe is
- At the recent ADRT, the debt of the DRV federation to Jürgen Zeiger was disclosed by Harald Hees to stand at EUR 960.000.
- Would you accept that the people running the federation as chief executives from June 2018 though June 2019 are only responsible for less than but at most the difference between this amount and roughy EUR 600.000? Supervised by Jens Poff, voluntary / unsalaried vice president finance (and ultimately Robin Stalker as voluntary / unsalaried president.) During their tenure, those executives changed at one point.

A bit above 600.000 is the figure published in a couple of sources as debt of the DRM (Deutsche Rugby Marketing) in June 2018. To Jürgen Zeiger as we now know (thanks to Harald Hees if not before.)

This is a good example. Worthwhile shining some light upon. Before appreciating key points of what you just shared (thanks.)

Do you agree? Do you object?
An oval greeting to you

Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 14 Aug 2020, 15:37

The German VereinsG is quite clear about liability issues. I am not a lawyer so I don't feel fit to judge in this case.
My opinion is that these are two different things and it doesn't help to combine them now ( I am fully aware that 1) leads to 2), but it doesn't help us now)

1) who's fault is the financial problems and is there still a liability?
2) how do we got out of this
3) what are the next steps if we don't (will there be a 7s setup funded by the government i.e.?)

I think 2) is more important for regular members.

For 1) I think the former Vorstände are still not "entlastet", right?

About 3) For me a bankruptcy would be the worst thing possible.

Btw. I still think that a public forum is not the best place to discuss financial matters of a federation.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:09
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 03:44

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
.. Once that happens I have no problem whatsoever to change my view.


Think you may cut the cheese Kim
@Vultureblack: Give Rugbyliebe a break. Why not give him a chance?

Like:
The question to Rugbyliebe is
- At the recent ADRT, the debt of the DRV federation to Jürgen Zeiger was disclosed by Harald Hees to stand at EUR 960.000.

- Would you accept that the people running the federation as chief executives from June 2018 though June 2019 are only responsible for less than but at most the difference between this amount and roughy EUR 600.000? Supervised by Jens Poff, voluntary / unsalaried vice president finance (and ultimately Robin Stalker as voluntary / unsalaried president.) During their tenure, those executives changed at one point.

A bit above 600.000 is the figure published in a couple of sources as debt of the DRM (Deutsche Rugby Marketing) in June 2018. To Jürgen Zeiger as we now know (thanks to Harald Hees if not before.)

This is a good example. Worthwhile shining some light upon. Before appreciating key points of what you just shared (thanks.)

Do you agree? Do you object?
An oval greeting to you


The amount of debt in the DRM IS roughly 800.000 not 960.000. But more importantly you’ve missed that the issue for the DRV are not the debts in the DRM. If the DRM was to go insolvent the money is lost for Jürgen Zeiger who gave loans to the DRM and not the DRV (the DRV will only be liable for the amount which is held in its foundation, which are roughly 100.000) by the nature of the limited.

The immediate threat was/is that President Robin Stalker, CFO Benjamin Heine and CEO Kieran Lees left behind more than 300.000 of debts for the DRV e.V. which would have left the DRV behind bankrupt if the new leadership didn’t take up or provide private loans. Maybe it’s also important to point out that the there were to major audits (one externally and one by the german federal office of administration) which certified that the DRV administration in 2017 and 2018 (this is when Klaus Blank held office) has worked flawless and the very same administration even managed to successfully end the 10 year financial recovery plan (inherited by the administration of Claus-Peter Bach) one year ahead of time.

Also Jens Poff acted as VP for competitions and not Finances (that’s Martin Bornhofen) so his primary role wasn’t to supervise the finances. However him, Michael Schnellbach and Romana Thielicke wrote an open letter to stop Stalkers tactics which threatened the survival of the Union after they couldn’t get through to their high caliber presidium members internally. Remember?

All this was presented very well by the new VP for Finances Mr. Entenmann during the general assembly and the supporting documents were shared with the DRV members. Of course you need to be able to understand a balance sheet to extract the information or alternatively you just join into an conversation to make wild accusation without any foundation. You seem to have gone for option two.

So to answer your question. Yes the Stalker-Lees-tandem stuffed up things pretty bad and managed to do that in a very short time.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 05:56

Hi Bogdan,

Thank you very much. I am equally critical of Stalker-Bornhofen and the full-time management under their auspices (first Michl then Lees and Heine) as I would be of the other fraction.

2 questions for the sake of transparency, please. To you or anybody else:

Bogdan wrote:Maybe it’s also important to point out that the there were to major audits (one externally and one by the german federal office of administration)

Who conducted the "external audit?"


Bogdan wrote:
All this was presented very well by the new VP for Finances Mr. Entenmann during the general assembly and the supporting documents were shared with the DRV members.

Was that just a presentation by Entenmann? Or were there handouts distributed? (If yes which ones, to whom, and when – just at the ADRT or by mail / otherwise?)

You made a forceful point. In the meantime I will check on the responsibility of Poff and the timing of its evolution. I was just quoting from this RNZ article (June 2018) and assumed the term 2018/19 started with him in that capacity.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 06:30

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote: I was just quoting from this RNZ article (June 2018) and assumed the term 2018/19 started with him in that capacity.

I've got an image of the article. But was not able to put it into my post.
Insert image did not work.

From the help page I learned in the meantime that I would first have to upload it as an attachment. And in order to do that I would need a permission by an administrator. But nowhere is explained how to get that. How could an administrator be contacted in the first place?

User avatar
Posts: 2381
Joined: Tue, 15 Apr 2014, 18:36
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby iul » Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 09:02

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote: I was just quoting from this RNZ article (June 2018) and assumed the term 2018/19 started with him in that capacity.

I've got an image of the article. But was not able to put it into my post.
Insert image did not work.

From the help page I learned in the meantime that I would first have to upload it as an attachment. And in order to do that I would need a permission by an administrator. But nowhere is explained how to get that. How could an administrator be contacted in the first place?

You can't upload pictures here. You have to upload them somewhere else, like imgur.com or faccebook/twitter and then insert them in a post here

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:09
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sun, 16 Aug 2020, 01:19

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote: I was just quoting from this RNZ article (June 2018) and assumed the term 2018/19 started with him in that capacity.

I've got an image of the article. But was not able to put it into my post.
Insert image did not work.

From the help page I learned in the meantime that I would first have to upload it as an attachment. And in order to do that I would need a permission by an administrator. But nowhere is explained how to get that. How could an administrator be contacted in the first place?


Poff has never been VP for Finances. He took over as CFO in January 20 and acted as VP for Competitions until then.

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:09
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sun, 16 Aug 2020, 01:25

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Hi Bogdan,

Thank you very much. I am equally critical of Stalker-Bornhofen and the full-time management under their auspices (first Michl then Lees and Heine) as I would be of the other fraction.

2 questions for the sake of transparency, please. To you or anybody else:

Bogdan wrote:Maybe it’s also important to point out that the there were to major audits (one externally and one by the german federal office of administration)

Who conducted the "external audit?"


Bogdan wrote:
All this was presented very well by the new VP for Finances Mr. Entenmann during the general assembly and the supporting documents were shared with the DRV members.

Was that just a presentation by Entenmann? Or were there handouts distributed? (If yes which ones, to whom, and when – just at the ADRT or by mail / otherwise?)


there was a lengthy presentation by Entenmann and all questions of the plenum where answered openly. Also documents where distributed to the club presidents and some additional info was shared with the regional unions before the assembly.

There was definitely an effort to share the info as transparent as possible.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sun, 16 Aug 2020, 06:22

Transparent, in a way yes. It would be even more transparent, if such information was available to me as well (rather than this very elite group.)

What about my other question about who conducted that probe, please?

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:09
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sun, 16 Aug 2020, 08:16

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Transparent, in a way yes. It would be even more transparent, if such information was available to me as well (rather than this very elite group.)

What about my other question about who conducted that probe, please?


this is very sensible information and each member had access to the information via their respective representatives in the regional union and the club, so if the information didn’t get to you, you might want to check with your club or regional union first. if you are not a member of a club, this information is non of your concern, I suppose.

The audit was conducted by Peters & Partner.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Mon, 17 Aug 2020, 06:01

Thanks. My knowledge and consensus of this brain storming is that Peters & Partner were commissioned by the DRV as a deliberate act of accountability.

The other probe was involuntary and conducted by an external party, an official agency. It regretfully must have been this uninvited one wich led to the requirement to repay EUR 80.000. An amount improperly diverted away from the funding of the sevens programme by the foundation to promote sport (Stiftung Deutsche Sporthilfe.)
According to some under the responsibility of the ousted previous leadership of Kieran Lees.

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:09
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Mon, 17 Aug 2020, 15:32

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Thanks. My knowledge and consensus of this brain storming is that Peters & Partner were commissioned by the DRV as a deliberate act of accountability.

The other probe was involuntary and conducted by an external party, an official agency. It regretfully must have been this uninvited one wich led to the requirement to repay EUR 80.000. An amount improperly diverted away from the funding of the sevens programme by the foundation to promote sport (Stiftung Deutsche Sporthilfe.)
According to some under the responsibility of the ousted previous leadership of Kieran Lees.


- The foundation to promote sports is not a sponsor of the DRV, it sponsors the players in the 7s program directly.

- the repayment, if there will be any has to be with the government. Albeit it is not yet decided how much money will have to be paid back. It was outlined in the general assembly that the board is in ongoing negotiations about this matter with the government.

- Peters & Partner were commissioned by the DOSB

Just out of curiosity: Where do you get your information from? Most of them are utterly wrong and that’s quite bizarre for an opinionated person like yourself, especially as the way the German sport system works is very well documented across the net.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Tue, 18 Aug 2020, 18:41

Sorry, I meant to restate the respective part of your representation (of that event.) To get it right.

Opinion is great. Only gets somewhere with pluralism. Ones that differ from mine are more interesting than the opposite. And I am always willing to change mine.

If not warranted, no matter how much I disagreed with it, I would still fight for your right to state yours freely.

Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 19 Aug 2020, 07:41

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Sorry, I meant to restate the respective part of your representation (of that event.) To get it right.

Opinion is great. Only gets somewhere with pluralism. Ones that differ from mine are more interesting than the opposite. And I am always willing to change mine.

If not warranted, no matter how much I disagreed with it, I would still fight for your right to state yours freely.


Actually a post without anything but empty phrases. I might be wrong, but why don't you answer Bogdan's question. Asking for transparency and being intransparent yourself doesn't really make sense

Bogdan wrote:Just out of curiosity: Where do you get your information from? Most of them are utterly wrong and that’s quite bizarre for an opinionated person like yourself, especially as the way the German sport system works is very well documented across the net.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 05:18
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Wed, 19 Aug 2020, 16:02

I owe Bogdan. He provided some information.
And my intention was to calm the waters. How about that?

I actually have got to thank him as well. He himself was the source I was quoting. And I listened well to what he corrected.

Posts: 11
Joined: Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 05:19
National Flag:
Channel IslandsChannel Islands

Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Wed, 19 Aug 2020, 18:16

RugbyLiebe wrote:t anything but empty phrases. I might be wrong, but why don't you answer Bogdan's question. Asking for transparency and being intransparent yourself doesn't really make sense


Is that what was meant by productively agitated?

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests