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German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 06:40

Kim Lombard wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:t anything but empty phrases. I might be wrong, but why don't you answer Bogdan's question. Asking for transparency and being intransparent yourself doesn't really make sense


Is that what was meant by productively agitated?


Or simply annoyed by not being able to be at least a bit precise. Again he answers and pretends he has more information but keeps it back.
Seems to be a German rugby thing, trying to create a mysterious atmosphere around yourself.
And it annoys me in all matters of life.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 11:49

RugbyLiebe wrote:Or simply annoyed by not being able to be at least a bit precise. Again he answers and pretends he has more information but keeps it back.
Seems to be a German rugby thing, trying to create a mysterious atmosphere around yourself.
And it annoys me in all matters of life.


Dear RugbyLiebe,

No worries, ask me a straight question (or two.) And I'll answer it.
Last edited by Saracenswulfpackdef on Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 11:57

What I was about to write when logging in - something positive about the DRV leadership at the ADRT:

They admitted that the recent acquisition of an ownership stake of the federation in the Oktoberfest 7s was Manuel Wilhelm's share.

Hard to say why this detail wasn't reported when the news were released. As this transaction did not involve a payment. What was making the rounds with a negative connotation of some cumbersome dealings before is now de-mystified. Could have been that easy from the outset.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 13:14

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Or simply annoyed by not being able to be at least a bit precise. Again he answers and pretends he has more information but keeps it back.
Seems to be a German rugby thing, trying to create a mysterious atmosphere around yourself.
And it annoys me in all matters of life.


Dear RugbyLiebe,

No worries, ask me a straight question (or two.) And I'll answer it.


Where did Bogdan say something that he now classifies as "Most of them are utterly wrong and that’s quite bizarre for an opinionated person like yourself"?

and what you call "He himself was the source I was quoting. And I listened well to what he corrected."

A normal conversation would state, what you think Bogdan said wrong before and exactly what he corrected now. Not being able to do this basic in conversation is what annoys me. This childish "I know what you said, but I don't tell you what I think you said" simply sucks in every environment.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 14:40

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:What I was about to write when logging in - something positive about the DRV ... Could have been that easy from the outset.


Perhaps they dreaded some nit pickers pointing out that the chance of some profits is offset by the exposure of a contingent liability.
(Even though an association serving the public good would not have to set aside provisions to account for such a risk.)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 17:34

Bogdan wrote:The amount of debt in the DRM IS roughly 800.000 not 960.000. But more importantly you’ve missed that the issue for the DRV are not the debts in the DRM.



I am still ruminating, there was a loose end.
One fine source, Bogdan: The federation is ring fenced from the debt of its subsidiary.

Another one, Harald Hees, stated as a big success in managing the solvency and liquidity of the federation that the maturity of the sizeable Zeiger-debt (obligor that subsidiary) was just pushed back to 31.12.2030. In conjunction with the financing needs to be addressed at the recent ADRT.

How to reconcile that contradiction?

Well, he is not the VP finance or the CFO. And even new to his current post.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 08:51

Vultureblack wrote:„Bittersweet“ is a telling description by Kobus Potgieter in this article. Memories of victories against Kenya, Uruguay, and Romania 2016/17. And on the club side HRK aka Wild Titans against Timisoara Saracens (2018 together with the likes of Padua or Calvisano.) And there was more to follow with the repechage tournament later 2018.
There are many things however to be put into perspective, while messieurs Botha, Potgieter, Armstrong, Jordaan, and Mohr deserve a lot of empathy.
- On the website it looks this piece was published September, 23 2019. The state of affairs it descibes however is summer 2018 (before the repechage.)
- There is no telling apart or mentioning of the role of renowed national coach Pablo Lemoine. Nor the drama of the player strike for the international against Chile in 2017.
- When it emerged in the dramatic week before that game, that the first choice 25 players would not play, their employer WRA actually owned up to them not being allowed to participate.
- There is no mentioning of quality German players on the payroll of clubs outside the country like Tymenev, Marks, Nostadt, Menzel, or Hilsenbeck. They had come from grassroot level before WRA involvement and had to be flown in for each international. That also applied to German-qualified foreign trained individuals like Tussac, Schosser, Murphy, Ducau, or Oltman not on WRA's payroll (except for special occasions.)
- The team had to kick on after the epic Romania victory in the home game against Spain. But the it simply had a bad day. It is hard to put that down to exhaustion since key performers like Poppmeier, Otto, Els, and van Grumbkow were rested for the road game to Georgia (between the the Romania and the Spain encounter.)
- More importantly, on that crucial day the national sevens programme coughed up one player of the right calibre in Basti Himmer (on top of Wild-employed sevens stalwarts Liebig and Mathurin.) Himmer had not featured for a long time and arguably this „secondment“ meant better support than earlier ones in the shape of Soteras-Merz or Dieckmann.
- It was do-or-die against Spain. And the Romania victory would not have been possible without first choice pro Damien Tussac anchoring the scrum. For other games he was hardly around. And neither was he for that Spain clash. Castres Olympique would not have it, as he was first choice there in a rotation of four top notch front rowers. That was the third force Dr. Wild and Robert Mohr were up against – player release for World Cup qualification games by professional clubs. Tussac was to Germany what Trevor Leota was to Samoa 2003 or Rodrigo Capo Ortega of Castres (sic!) was to Uruguay 2015 (the other two being the German federation under the spell of the sport ministry and eventually European Professional Club Rugby, EPCR.)
- Robert Mohr at one point in the controversy conceded that players were hardly spread around German clubs at all. But rather concentrated with his own Heidelberg club. Giving up on making a competitive domestic club championship a breeding ground. Meaningful exceptions to that preference like Henn, Fairhurst, or Dickinson were perhaps more than matched by releases to the Titans of paid playes like May, Cameron-Dow, or Klewinghaus from their clubs (and numerous other amateurs, a significant regulatory concession by the German federation and other club owners.)
- But the heart of the matter is the EPRC. When did they inform Dr. Wild? Did he know earlier and did not tell his players? This article is the only source which is very explicitly painting the opposite picture. Simon Halliday and the EPRC were quoted as contradicting this. But there is no obvious source as evidence to that either. If it was, the Titans players had not heard about it before that very big game against Timisoara Saracens. And they surely would have. So the public just does not know. (And nobody has unveiled anything on that ever since. And: Was it wise for Dr. Wild to lend Tongan international Siegfried Fisiihoi from Stade Francais to the Titans for those key games? And then cry foul.)
The article tells a gripping narrative. But it is devoid of anything new. Other than that last point: When did Dr. Wild know? (And the possible answer here is a claim only. In favour of Dr. Wild.)


This is a quote from a different thread on T2Rugby.com

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30&p=127096#p127096

Option piece or a collection of facts – the drift is anti-Wild all the way through. In a parochial, bipartisan kategorisation of anybody dealing with German rugby, this stance would place you, Vultureblack, in the pro-sevens camp.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 24 Aug 2020, 08:40

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:
This is a quote from a different thread on T2Rugby.com

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30&p=127096#p127096

Option piece or a collection of facts – the drift is anti-Wild all the way through. In a parochial, bipartisan kategorisation of anybody dealing with German rugby, this stance would place you, Vultureblack, in the pro-sevens camp.


1) what happened to
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:No worries, ask me a straight question (or two.) And I'll answer it.
???

2) I am curious, how you interpret that article, and which parts of Vultures summary was actually biased towards any camp?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 05:11

1. That offer still stands.

2. Encouraged to make it explicit.

In line with the old adage that the idiot sees the obvious, the average guy the average, and the intellectual the exception (let's add a modicum of arrogance here. To keep everybody awake: )

I'd say, I took a bit the position of the idiot.
There was a lovely article, a really good read. And then there is somebody saying "appreciate that. But there is just one side represented. Here is what is missing."
If that's convincing, that whole exercise was just completing the picture. Pure objectivity.

If it's not, it could be seen as opposition. ( And I was the idiot. The "useful idiot" at least. I love that term.)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 06:29

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:1. That offer still stands.


Then why don't you answer the questions asked above?

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:2. Encouraged to make it explicit.

In line with the old adage that the idiot sees the obvious, the average guy the average, and the intellectual the exception (let's add a modicum of arrogance here. To keep everybody awake: )

I'd say, I took a bit the position of the idiot.
There was a lovely article, a really good read. And then there is somebody saying "appreciate that. But there is just one side represented. Here is what is missing."
If that's convincing, that whole exercise was just completing the picture. Pure objectivity.

If it's not, it could be seen as opposition. ( And I was the idiot. The "useful idiot" at least. I love that term.)


Normal people would have written: I don't want to say what I think, but I am at least not being smart about it.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:24

The article itself is a lot of journalistic work for sure. A big effort getting a lot of proximity to all these prominent Wild Rugby Academy actors across.

Well, reading at first the comments on that article, they smack of opposition to it. But it evolves into something open ended. And what seems emphatic, could well be empathy for the topic itself.

If I think about it - isn't it beneficial to a forum if somebody is getting lost in details and therefore shares more? In this case not vitriolic diatribes but reason. (Reason of some kind. Conclusions might be a different matter. A step further. If contradicting reason would be brought up.)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 16:43

Good fun some vitriol.

"A bit of argie-bargie," or "niggle"
as the seasoned rugby commenator might say. If you know what I mean.

O-kay, ... it wouldn't advance the thought process.
But where is the comfort in that?

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 05:45

Bogdan wrote:All this was presented very well by the new VP for Finances Mr. Entenmann during the general assembly and the supporting documents were shared with the DRV members.

...

there was a lengthy presentation by Entenmann and all questions of the plenum where answered openly. Also documents where distributed to the club presidents and some additional info was shared with the regional unions before the assembly.

There was definitely an effort to share the info as transparent as possible.


Don't shoot the messenger. But transparency was really stepped up overnight by the DRV.

The "newsletter" previously only distributed by email to a small elite roughly a week ago was published for everybody on the DRV website. So it was not just "shared with the DRV members [through their club representatives]" but all DRV members.

That takes transparency a bit further. If becoming a new norm, quite a sea change.

Good idea?

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 07:55

already the last newsletter was put on the old website (although i couldn’t find it on the new website).

But you mix up the monthly ceo reports, which a shared with the club presidents, the presidents of the regions, world rugby, rugby europe, the dosb and the employees with the newsletter which is published each quarter and shared via the website.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 06:09

A bit overlooked by the disclosure of the top brass of rugby in the country (Totalrugby, the DRV, or that institution itself) was the recent RBA meeting as far as reporting was concerned. Amid the news that the first leg of the 2020 / 21 season was called off for good.

It took some time until further news emerged. The election of Christopher Molzahn as successor to Ingo Goessgen eventually became known. (Together with Herbert Lutge standing down as deputy and Kai Nagel of RGH added to the board. One post of four left vacant amid the various responsibilities, all kinds of Staffelleiters and the like.)
In the weeks following that key meeting, all this was only visible in the imprint on the RBA website.

Other content eclipsed by the understandable excitement surrounding the abandonment of scheduled games and the discussion leading to that decision* was that also
- switching to a calendar year season (moved as a topic to the DRT in November, if only because of the lacking responsibility on such a matter) and
- completing the 2019 / 20 season in March 2021 (thereby merging two seasons)
was part of the debate.

Nothing yours truly would endorse. But still meaningful I reckon.

*with a quorum achieved by roughly 30 of 40 clubs attending, with a satisfying simple majority on that key decision.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Werner » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 07:40

Vultureblack wrote:that institution itself
The outcome of the meeting was published the same day on RBAs Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/156229541692227/posts/629923704322806/

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Sun, 06 Sep 2020, 05:17

Thanks.

That was pretty timely. So RBA itself did its bit. Just wasn't picked up too much telling from the lack of waves made anywhere else.
And a representative of RBA joined the deliberations which ensued as comments. Which in part reflected the other topics of that meeting.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Sun, 06 Sep 2020, 06:27

Vultureblack wrote:A bit overlooked by the disclosure of the top brass of rugby in the country (Totalrugby, the DRV, or that institution itself) was the recent RBA meeting as far as reporting was concerned. Amid the news that the first leg of the 2020 / 21 season was called off for good.

It took some time until further news emerged. The election of Christopher Molzahn as successor to Ingo Goessgen eventually became known. (Together with Herbert Lutge standing down as deputy and Kai Nagel of RGH added to the board. One post of four left vacant amid the various responsibilities, all kinds of Staffelleiters and the like.)
In the weeks following that key meeting, all this was only visible in the imprint on the RBA website.

Other content eclipsed by the understandable excitement surrounding the abandonment of scheduled games and the discussion leading to that decision* was that also
- switching to a calendar year season (moved as a topic to the DRT in November, if only because of the lacking responsibility on such a matter) and
- completing the 2019 / 20 season in March 2021 (thereby merging two seasons)
was part of the debate.

Nothing yours truly would endorse. But still meaningful I reckon.

*with a quorum achieved by roughly 30 of 40 clubs attending, with a satisfying simple majority on that key decision.


what a lot of you seemed to have missed is that the new leadership of the DRV took over an almost bankrupt organization. To ensure the survival of the union some serious budget cuts had to be made not just affecting the national team but all other aspects of the union like the press officer and the main office for example.

So we simply can’t expect every decision to be covered in real-time, especially on weekends and during a global pandemic. Who should have been present to cover the Bundesliga meeting?

The current crew (to stay in aviation terms) of president (or captain) Harald Hees has been very very transparent (sometimes to transparent for my likings) about this and seems to be working pretty hard to keep all their stakeholders up to speed despite the several fundamental cuts in funding and sponsorship they had to put up with.

Financially the DRV is closer to Czech Rugby than it is to Spain or Portugal. Yet we seem to expect them to communicate on the level of full progressional sporting bodies.

I can say for sure that my home country, despite all the World Cups we took part in, is not providing that kind of transparent and regular informations to its members.

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