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Inter-continental competitons

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Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 10:54

Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:07

Rugby simply doesn't have the means to support these type of leagues anymore. At least in the Southern Hemisphere. Europe has close proximity so that's rarely going to be an issues. But down here, we were managing things well enough when Super Rugby was at 12 and 14 teams, but ever since we moved to 15 and beyond it's been a disaster waiting to happen.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:17

Figaro wrote:Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033


South African teams should pull out of the Pro 14. Go back to the Pro 12 and add a shorter intercontinental cup at the start of the European season involving Pro 12 and South African teams.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Higgik » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:34

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033


South African teams should pull out of the Pro 14. Go back to the Pro 12 and add a shorter intercontinental cup at the start of the European season involving Pro 12 and South African teams.

Or even look to add London Scottish playing out of Plough Lane Stadium. They don't have to have the true links and be like Irish, using the Celtic link to raise the profile. Also gets the league into a big city. Another alternative would be to have the Cornish Pirates, as they are a Celtic Nation.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:43

They're not going to replace them with an English based team. That's a non starter. It's probably too late to add another team from anywhere anyway.

I don't see how you can structure two conferences with only one SA team either. The only way I can see this going is the Cheetahs leaving as well, for 2020-21 at the very least. They will be able to play in whatever South Africa cooks up in the meantine. Maybe then in 2021-22 the South Africans will rejoin en masse.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:45

Higgik wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033


South African teams should pull out of the Pro 14. Go back to the Pro 12 and add a shorter intercontinental cup at the start of the European season involving Pro 12 and South African teams.

Or even look to add London Scottish playing out of Plough Lane Stadium. They don't have to have the true links and be like Irish, using the Celtic link to raise the profile. Also gets the league into a big city. Another alternative would be to have the Cornish Pirates, as they are a Celtic Nation.


Or move the King's to London. I think having a London club would be better for the league than adding a Cornish team.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:49

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Higgik wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033


South African teams should pull out of the Pro 14. Go back to the Pro 12 and add a shorter intercontinental cup at the start of the European season involving Pro 12 and South African teams.

Or even look to add London Scottish playing out of Plough Lane Stadium. They don't have to have the true links and be like Irish, using the Celtic link to raise the profile. Also gets the league into a big city. Another alternative would be to have the Cornish Pirates, as they are a Celtic Nation.


Or move the King's to London. I think having a London club would be better for the league than adding a Cornish team.


They've folded. Gone bust. There's nothing to move to London, even if that was an option, which it isn't.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 11:51

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Higgik wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:Inter-continental competitons not looking good in near future.

Kings have officially withdrawn from the PRo14
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53903033


South African teams should pull out of the Pro 14. Go back to the Pro 12 and add a shorter intercontinental cup at the start of the European season involving Pro 12 and South African teams.

Or even look to add London Scottish playing out of Plough Lane Stadium. They don't have to have the true links and be like Irish, using the Celtic link to raise the profile. Also gets the league into a big city. Another alternative would be to have the Cornish Pirates, as they are a Celtic Nation.


Or move the King's to London. I think having a London club would be better for the league than adding a Cornish team.


They've folded. Gone bust. There's nothing to move to London, even if that was an option, which it isn't.


Nevertheless a London club is a better option than a Cornish club.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 12:42

But neither is an option. So that's like saying a Dragon is a better option as a guard dog than a Griffin. You might be right but it's still a fantasy either way.

For starters, the RFU isn't going to sanction any English based club from playing in a non-rfu sanctioned competition. They probably couldn't legally prevent them from playing, but they wouldn't have any kind of funding or support nor access to the academies, u20 teams etc. etc. - that would have to be backed up by either a foreign Union or a billionaire benefactor. If the other sides had the cash to create a team from scratch (which they don't) why would they do it in London rather than the Valleys /North Wales /Aberdeen/Borders etc.? And if a billionaire wanted to back a London team why do that in the Pro 14 rather than the English system? And who would support the team, given London already has several Professional rugby teams?

Cornwall might be Celtic for all that's worth but there's no Cornish national side or Union to back the team, no incentive for one of the Celtic unions to back it, and no incentive for the English Union to back them playing abroad. So it would have to be private money and again, why pick the Pro14 with all its problems over the English system?

To be honest a replacement team of any kind is pretty unlikely. The only way I could see that taking place would be for one of the other South African sides to step in. And it's going to be hard enough to work around having the Cheetahs here. More likely is that the Cheetahs will follow the Kings out of the competition altogether, possibly to rejoin in 2021.
Last edited by Figaro on Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 12:55

Kings welcome to Russia!
A mutually beneficial project is offered from Russia. Big sponsors of rugby came there. Russia in terms of money in rugby is already approaching the level of Japan. Putin supported the application to organize RWC2027 in Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2027_Rugby_World_Cup
The essence of the proposal. The backbone of the Kings team is 30-35 players who played in PRO14 + 5-6 coaches are moving to Russia. They receive financial guarantees for 5 years. Salary fond 1.5 million $ annually. Also, 10 Russian young players (U23) from Russian clubs on loan will be added to the team to learn South African rugby. The Russian Rugby Union will be in charge of organizing matches, trips and other issues.
It is beneficial for Russia to get a strong foreign team in our PRO league. For various reasons, strong international leagues (European Challenge Cup and GRR) do not want to play with Russian clubs.
There are 3 cities to choose from for the Kings base in Russia with new stadiums after FIFA2018 and new training bases. Saransk (middle quiet Russia), Kaliningrad (the coast of the Baltic Sea) and Sochi (the coast of the Black Sea - subtropics).
In 5 years, the Kings players will have two citizenships of South Africa and Russia. They will have the choice to play for two national teams. Given the intense competition in South Africa, many of them could play for Russia at the 2027 home World Cup.
Let me remind you that there are 10 clubs in the Russian PRO league at the moment. More than 30 South African players and 5 coaches play in them.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 12:55

Figaro you're right. Cheetahs should pull out of Pro 14 too. I feel like Pro 14 has served its purpose but now it's time to go back to Pro 12. South Africa should explore options with Georgia and Russia.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:39

STMKY wrote:Kings welcome to Russia!
A mutually beneficial project is offered from Russia. Big sponsors of rugby came there. Russia in terms of money in rugby is already approaching the level of Japan. Putin supported the application to organize RWC2027 in Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2027_Rugby_World_Cup
The essence of the proposal. The backbone of the Kings team is 30-35 players who played in PRO14 + 5-6 coaches are moving to Russia. They receive financial guarantees for 5 years. Salary fond 1.5 million $ annually. Also, 10 Russian young players (U23) from Russian clubs on loan will be added to the team to learn South African rugby. The Russian Rugby Union will be in charge of organizing matches, trips and other issues.
It is beneficial for Russia to get a strong foreign team in our PRO league. For various reasons, strong international leagues (European Challenge Cup and GRR) do not want to play with Russian clubs.
There are 3 cities to choose from for the Kings base in Russia with new stadiums after FIFA2018 and new training bases. Saransk (middle quiet Russia), Kaliningrad (the coast of the Baltic Sea) and Sochi (the coast of the Black Sea - subtropics).
In 5 years, the Kings players will have two citizenships of South Africa and Russia. They will have the choice to play for two national teams. Given the intense competition in South Africa, many of them could play for Russia at the 2027 home World Cup.
Let me remind you that there are 10 clubs in the Russian PRO league at the moment. More than 30 South African players and 5 coaches play in them.


I am sure there will be some players happy to move to Russian teams. I can't see what the incentive is for the team as a whole to move. They've been wound up anyway so there isn't a team to move there.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:45

So the players are going to Russia. But compare. Strela Kazan. Two coaches from South Africa and 8 players from South Africa. But on the field at the same time there is a maximum of 6 Saffas. But the rest of the Russian players are of different levels. A couple of Russian national team players, there are former amateurs. And if the backbone of the Kings comes. Then Russia will receive a PRO14 level team in its league. These are more than 20 top matches for Russian clubs against a foreign team.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:45

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Figaro you're right. Cheetahs should pull out of Pro 14 too. I feel like Pro 14 has served its purpose but now it's time to go back to Pro 12. South Africa should explore options with Georgia and Russia.


What was the purpose, beyond keeping the Cheetahs and Kings alive as franchises (and it's now failed at half of that anyway)?

I don't see how the Cheetahs can participate alone in 2020-21 even without the Travel restrictions and will be surprised at any outcome other than a Covid-enforced return to the Pro12 for next season.

As for the long run, I was and am against South African participation in the Pro 14 but if they have to be here it might as well be all of them, o'r at least their better teams, than the second choices. I think a national conference based (the Italians and Scots could swap between the Irish and Welsh conferences) Pro18 with 3x6 team conferences would be a slight improvement on the status quo.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:46

STMKY wrote:So the players are going to Russia. But compare. Strela Kazan. Two coaches from South Africa and 8 players from South Africa. But on the field at the same time there is a maximum of 6 Saffas. But the rest of the Russian players are of different levels. A couple of Russian national team players, there are former amateurs. And if the backbone of the Kings comes. Then Russia will receive a PRO14 level team in its league. These are more than 20 top matches for Russian clubs against a foreign team.


I think that if the last few years have taught us anything its that the Southern Kings are not a Pro14 level team.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 13:53

Most of the Kings players would struggle to get a professional contract elsewhere, but in Russia they could do well. This is an opportunity to strengthen the Russian Premier League. Some of those players could be playing for Russia in 2025 and in the 2027 RWC.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:00

The most important thing now is what CVC thinks. They can't simply decide to merge Pro14 with Premiership as ,besides an obvious difference of interestes between English clubs and Celtic teams, Italy is a Pro14 stakeowner. But it wouldn't surprise me to see this ring belling.

Anyway, the Cheetahs future is in danger and we don't know how is their financial situation. South Africa is in danger og seeing more and more players going to Europe or Japan and this means maybe the best solution is being down to Earth and build a better Currie Cup and embrace Australia's Super 8 project. Let's pay attention that if Lions, Sharks, Bulls and Stormers were in PRO14(16) they wouldn't have calendar to play the Super 8. The question is: can Super 8 attract investors? Playing only Currie Cup and Super 8 saves money, so it doesn't need that much to become an interesting option.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:05

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Figaro you're right. Cheetahs should pull out of Pro 14 too. I feel like Pro 14 has served its purpose but now it's time to go back to Pro 12. South Africa should explore options with Georgia and Russia.


What was the purpose, beyond keeping the Cheetahs and Kings alive as franchises (and it's now failed at half of that anyway?.


The purpose of teams like Cheetahs and Kings is to give opportunities to players that might be lost to professional rugby and therefore the Springboks otherwise. Some players might not be given contracts by the 4 Super Rugby franchises if there is a lot of strength and depth in certain positions, or maybe a player is a late developer or a bit small. There are many reasons why a player might be overlooked. If a player really shines at the Cheetahs or Kings he will get snapped up by a Super Rugby team. It's quite important to have teams like Cheetahs and Kings.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:14

23 team British and Irish league, single round robin, is the best option for the British and Irish teams.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:19

Chester-Donnelly wrote:23 team British and Irish league, single round robin, is the best option for the British and Irish teams.


Certainly for the Celtic unions. As someone points out above, Italy being a Pro14 stakeholder is a bit of an obstacle - unless the whole thing just comes crashing down. I can't see that happening though, not unless some other teams go bust.

I would expect some kind of conference based system if we do go down this route as they will want to preserve Derby games.

Italy would be better off creating a stronger domestic system. The Pro12 hasn't helped them.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:24

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Figaro you're right. Cheetahs should pull out of Pro 14 too. I feel like Pro 14 has served its purpose but now it's time to go back to Pro 12. South Africa should explore options with Georgia and Russia.


What was the purpose, beyond keeping the Cheetahs and Kings alive as franchises (and it's now failed at half of that anyway?.


The purpose of teams like Cheetahs and Kings is to give opportunities to players that might be lost to professional rugby and therefore the Springboks otherwise. Some players might not be given contracts by the 4 Super Rugby franchises if there is a lot of strength and depth in certain positions, or maybe a player is a late developer or a bit small. There are many reasons why a player might be overlooked. If a player really shines at the Cheetahs or Kings he will get snapped up by a Super Rugby team. It's quite important to have teams like Cheetahs and Kings.

Currie Cup can do this job.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:25

Figaro wrote:I think that if the last few years have taught us anything its that the Southern Kings are not a Pro14 level team.

But we are satisfied with their level. In the Russian PRO league, they will qualify for 1st place. Our teams will learn from them.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:27

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:23 team British and Irish league, single round robin, is the best option for the British and Irish teams.


Certainly for the Celtic unions. As someone points out above, Italy being a Pro14 stakeholder is a bit of an obstacle - unless the whole thing just comes crashing down. I can't see that happening though, not unless some other teams go bust.

I would expect some kind of conference based system if we do go down this route as they will want to preserve Derby games.

Italy would be better off creating a stronger domestic system. The Pro12 hasn't helped them.


The question is: would the broadcast and sponsorship deals worth the same money for each team?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:29

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:23 team British and Irish league, single round robin, is the best option for the British and Irish teams.


Certainly for the Celtic unions. As someone points out above, Italy being a Pro14 stakeholder is a bit of an obstacle - unless the whole thing just comes crashing down. I can't see that happening though, not unless some other teams go bust.

I would expect some kind of conference based system if we do go down this route as they will want to preserve Derby games.

Italy would be better off creating a stronger domestic system. The Pro12 hasn't helped them.


If Wales would drop Ospreys or Dragons a 24 team British-Irish-Italian league would be a good size for either round robin or some sort of conference structure.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 14:40

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:23 team British and Irish league, single round robin, is the best option for the British and Irish teams.


Certainly for the Celtic unions. As someone points out above, Italy being a Pro14 stakeholder is a bit of an obstacle - unless the whole thing just comes crashing down. I can't see that happening though, not unless some other teams go bust.

I would expect some kind of conference based system if we do go down this route as they will want to preserve Derby games.

Italy would be better off creating a stronger domestic system. The Pro12 hasn't helped them.


If Wales would drop Ospreys or Dragons a 24 team British-Irish-Italian league would be a good size for either round robin or some sort of conference structure.


If you were keen on dropping any of those teams it would be Zebre. They've barely averaged attendances of more than 1,000 and I very much doubt their TV audience comes close to any of the others either. But Italian teams in a B&I structure makes no sense, the whole point would be to create a competition that makes historic, cultural and commercial sense.

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