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Inter-continental competitons

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:41

victorsra wrote:And again, why not a playoff? :lol: What are the Cartellians afraid of? If a club folds after being relegated, it is their own fault (according to you), right? So why not playing them? Fear of losing to poor guys? Cartellians don't like to risk shame.


Cornish Pirates play at a good standard. It is a good feeder club for the Chiefs. Cornwall produces a lot of players for England. To build a strong Championship we need clubs like Cornish Pirates.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:45

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Thank you Figaro. Excellent explanation. So basically, where we are now, the 4 pro teams are here to stay and the Welsh Premiership clubs will never be more than that, whatever their history. If there was a fifth pro team it would either be a brand new Valleys team or a North Wales team. But unless oil is discovered under the Brecon Beacons that is just never going to happen. 4 is the right number of pro teams for Wales.


Absolutely, with the North Wales side being infinitely more likely. The WRU have put a lot of money into that setup. It's academy is already at the level of the regions facilities wise, though the players aren't as good, and they have turned the stadium form a field with a running track into something that would be small for the Pro14 but better than what Connacht and Zebre have.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:56

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:And again, why not a playoff? :lol: What are the Cartellians afraid of? If a club folds after being relegated, it is their own fault (according to you), right? So why not playing them? Fear of losing to poor guys? Cartellians don't like to risk shame.


Cornish Pirates play at a good standard. It is a good feeder club for the Chiefs. Cornwall produces a lot of players for England. To build a strong Championship we need clubs like Cornish Pirates.


Still not an answer. You can build a strong championship with a playoff. Stronger than without.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:57

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Thank you Figaro. Excellent explanation. So basically, where we are now, the 4 pro teams are here to stay and the Welsh Premiership clubs will never be more than that, whatever their history. If there was a fifth pro team it would either be a brand new Valleys team or a North Wales team. But unless oil is discovered under the Brecon Beacons that is just never going to happen. 4 is the right number of pro teams for Wales.


Absolutely, with the North Wales side being infinitely more likely. The WRU have put a lot of money into that setup. It's academy is already at the level of the regions facilities wise, though the players aren't as good, and they have turned the stadium form a field with a running track into something that would be small for the Pro14 but better than what Connacht and Zebre have.


I guess another thing in North Wales's favour is the South Wales teams don't really like going there because it's really far. It is closer to northern England than it is to South Wales. So if the WRU wanted to enter a Welsh academy side into the English Championship, North Wales would be a good place to base it.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:58

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:And again, why not a playoff? :lol: What are the Cartellians afraid of? If a club folds after being relegated, it is their own fault (according to you), right? So why not playing them? Fear of losing to poor guys? Cartellians don't like to risk shame.


Cornish Pirates play at a good standard. It is a good feeder club for the Chiefs. Cornwall produces a lot of players for England. To build a strong Championship we need clubs like Cornish Pirates.


Still not an answer. You can build a strong championship with a playoff. Stronger than without.


There's a growing gap that is unsurmountable.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:59

So, play them and show that. Why the fear?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 15:01

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Thank you Figaro. Excellent explanation. So basically, where we are now, the 4 pro teams are here to stay and the Welsh Premiership clubs will never be more than that, whatever their history. If there was a fifth pro team it would either be a brand new Valleys team or a North Wales team. But unless oil is discovered under the Brecon Beacons that is just never going to happen. 4 is the right number of pro teams for Wales.


Absolutely, with the North Wales side being infinitely more likely. The WRU have put a lot of money into that setup. It's academy is already at the level of the regions facilities wise, though the players aren't as good, and they have turned the stadium form a field with a running track into something that would be small for the Pro14 but better than what Connacht and Zebre have.


I guess another thing in North Wales's favour is the South Wales teams don't really like going there because it's really far. It is closer to northern England than it is to South Wales. So if the WRU wanted to enter a Welsh academy side into the English Championship, North Wales would be a good place to base it.


Travelling to North Wales would be a joke compared to getting to any other Pro14 team though. This was more of an objection when RGC were playing in Division 1 East against amateurs, who reasonably enough objected to a ten hour round trip. This isn't really a valid objection at semi Pro level, let alone Pro level.

As a related point, you can get from Colwyn Bay to Dublin by car/train and ferry in about two hours if you time it right.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 06:54

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:And again, why not a playoff? :lol: What are the Cartellians afraid of? If a club folds after being relegated, it is their own fault (according to you), right? So why not playing them? Fear of losing to poor guys? Cartellians don't like to risk shame.


Cornish Pirates play at a good standard. It is a good feeder club for the Chiefs. Cornwall produces a lot of players for England. To build a strong Championship we need clubs like Cornish Pirates.


Still not an answer. You can build a strong championship with a playoff. Stronger than without.


There's a growing gap that is unsurmountable.


What is the budget of an average Premiership club? Do you honestly think a turnover of 15 million GBP is unsurmountable? That's laughable all you need to be competitive is one of the upper-class-guys who are not that rare in the British game to step up and voila you have bridged the gap.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 09:09

These RFU Championship player movements are very interesting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _transfers

For Cornish Pirates it demonstrates the hierarchy of rugby clubs on the South West Peninsula. Elite professional: Exeter Chiefs. Professional: Cornish Pirates. Semi Professional: Plymouth Albion. With movements up and down between the three. The South West Peninsula has a population of 2.2 million people. Exeter Chiefs's stadium Sandy Park is conveniently situated at the end of the M5 motorway.

What is also interesting is Ealing Trailfinders's large number of signings from Premiership clubs. Maybe they're building a Premiership strength team. Maybe they think there will be space for them in the Premiership soon.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 10:59

Ealing have long had Premiership ambitions. The players they're signing aren't very good though. Look how many don't even have Wikipedia articles. If a player from a higher level is signed by a lower club this is usually because they're not good enough for the higher level.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 13:10

victorsra wrote:And again, why not a playoff? :lol: What are the Cartellians afraid of? If a club folds after being relegated, it is their own fault (according to you), right? So why not playing them? Fear of losing to poor guys? Cartellians don't like to risk shame.


The Premiership owners want a monopoly because it benefits them.

The only way in is by buying them out, and there is no way out so they can cut their spending without consequence. They can then sit back, let the league grow without putting anything in and when a new millionaire wants a play thing they can auction their place off to them. And if they move the team? So what.

They don't want "English Rugby" to grow, they want the 13 clubs to grow, a key difference. The RFU are happy with this because 13 teams are easier to control than 25 or 40 and they get their quasi-regional rugby without having to shoulder any risk.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 17:16

Figaro wrote:Ealing have long had Premiership ambitions. The players they're signing aren't very good though. Look how many don't even have Wikipedia articles. If a player from a higher level is signed by a lower club this is usually because they're not good enough for the higher level.


Has there been any further gossip on Ealing and other wanting to join the PRO league

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... d-15671247

Whilst I think it was mostly bluster at the time, with the cut in funding and the low opportunity of promotion , it would actually make sense for a number of these teams to pursue this option. If you are wanting to make the jump from Championship to Premiership ahead of one of the established 13 teams, you need a large slice of luck and very deep pockets. Something the teams quoted in this article dont have.

If teams ambitions extend to being feeder teams for Exeter or Gloucester then so be it , but I do not see the patrons of these clubs dishing out millions in the long term to be stuck in a second tier forever. If these teams have ambitions, and London Scottish are trying to be more commercially viable so add them to the list, then have an expanded B&I league or get the PRO league to convince the ambitious Championship clubs to join forces and build a larger competition.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 18:12

It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 18:32

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


I actually like this format. Always thought the PRO14 could have been expanded to a NFL size , but it may be more realistic to expand the B&I competition to do this. Not sure where the Italian teams sit in this , unless they are going to be bought out of the competition ?
What would happen to the European Cup and Challenge Cup ? If the competition above igoes ahead , would the European competitions be scrapped in favour of a world club competition

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 19:02

Rebus wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


I actually like this format. Always thought the PRO14 could have been expanded to a NFL size , but it may be more realistic to expand the B&I competition to do this. Not sure where the Italian teams sit in this , unless they are going to be bought out of the competition ?
What would happen to the European Cup and Challenge Cup ? If the competition above igoes ahead , would the European competitions be scrapped in favour of a world club competition


An eighth continental conference would make it better. Benetton Treviso, Zebre and 2 others, but I have no idea what those other 2 would be.
Play the other teams in your conference twice, and 2 teams from each of the other conferences. 20 regular season games. Next season play the teams you didn't play this season.

There could still be a European Cup (top 2 from each conference plus 8 French teams) and Challenge Cup (the remainder plus 6 French teams plus 2 European qualifiers).

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 19:16

There is zero prospect of Ealing or any other English club joining the ProX because of the reasons outlined in this very thread.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 19:50

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


7 Divisions un-aligned to a conference would make the league really weird for playoffs. How about a two conference structure with 3 divisions each?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 19:52

Figaro wrote:There is zero prospect of Ealing or any other English club joining the ProX because of the reasons outlined in this very thread.


You're right. Wales Online speculates and makes things up more than we do.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 19:59

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


7 Divisions un-aligned to a conference would make the league really weird for playoffs. How about a two conference structure with 3 divisions each?


How about the 8 conference structure I suggested, with a continental conference of Benetton Treviso, Zebre and 2 others? Maybe a Madrid team and a Bucharest team or a Rome team.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 13:31

But you all first said those clubs don't have conditions to play...

If you combine both Pro12 and Premiership, you can have 24 teams. Not more.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 13:55

victorsra wrote:But you all first said those clubs don't have conditions to play...

If you combine both Pro12 and Premiership, you can have 24 teams. Not more.


If Italy and South Africa were included you could have 32 teams. I'm not in favour of including South Africa but I think it is likely to happen.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 14:19

I honestly don't see it happening. If SA enters, PRO14 keeps intact, no merge.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 19:20

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


7 Divisions un-aligned to a conference would make the league really weird for playoffs. How about a two conference structure with 3 divisions each?


How about the 8 conference structure I suggested, with a continental conference of Benetton Treviso, Zebre and 2 others? Maybe a Madrid team and a Bucharest team or a Rome team.

What's the purpose of an 8 Division Structure? In a sense one reason you have conferences is to also add a conference final weekend before a "grand" final.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 19:38

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be interesting to know which clubs have serious Premiership ambitions. If those clubs mentioned plus Doncaster Knights all have Premiership ambitions another conference could be added.

Ireland Conference: Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht.
Northern Conference: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sale.
West Midlands: Gloucester, Worcester, Coventry, Wasps.
East Midlands: Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Doncaster.
Wales Conference: Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff, Dragons.
Southwest Conference: Cornish Pirates, Bristol, Bath, Exeter.
London Conference: Saracens, London Irish, Harlequins, Ealing.


7 Divisions un-aligned to a conference would make the league really weird for playoffs. How about a two conference structure with 3 divisions each?


How about the 8 conference structure I suggested, with a continental conference of Benetton Treviso, Zebre and 2 others? Maybe a Madrid team and a Bucharest team or a Rome team.

What's the purpose of an 8 Division Structure? In a sense one reason you have conferences is to also add a conference final weekend before a "grand" final.


Take the Welsh teams for example. 20 regular season games. 6 against Welsh teams; 9 against English teams; 2 against Irish teams; 2 against European teams; 1 against a Scottish team. Every season you play the other Welsh teams twice. You play every team over a 2 year cycle. You play more games against closer teams where there is a natural rivalry, and travelling is reduced which reduces costs and environmental impact and helps attendances by increasing numbers of away fans. Finals would be 4 rounds with conference winners having home advantage. Then quarter finals, semi finals, final.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 21:57

PRO14 and Premiership have both 24 rounds + 9 weeks of the European Cups = 33. If we count only the months of the season without national teams, the ideal is less than 30. Rugby must learn that not always more matches = more money. It is true that European clubs generate more money than the SH because they have more events, but if you remember that more events also = larger squads, if you respect player welfare, it is needed a reduced calendar IMO.

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