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Inter-continental competitons

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Canalina » Thu, 01 Oct 2020, 10:37

Benetton Treviso president, about Pro14
“South African teams in the tournament? It could be just the beginning. In few years the Pro16 could expand in new countries and in one new continent". "If the situation improved, we can't exclude a future with American and Russian franchises, in a pools format. Very interesting projects are in working progress, we have other ideas and there are new horizons to be explored"

www.onrugby.it/2020/10/01/benetton-rugb ... -e-russia/

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Thu, 01 Oct 2020, 15:51

Russia we might believe to be in the agenda only if it means sponsorship, but USA is the sort of talk you see people say anything to sound visionaire, but in reality they are just misreading reality.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Fri, 02 Oct 2020, 05:49

I have posted before about the Pro league getting to NFL sizes (32 teams) and whilst I appreciate this is part aspirational I still think long term it is feasible with a collective desire from the clubs and league organisers and the national unions.
As it stands it looks like there will be 16 teams as the next phase of this expansion , if this is being considered as a Euro / Africa based competition , then 32 teams is entirely feasible over time and the league should be a lot more proactive in expansion, within the realms of financial capapbility.
But it is the national teams responsibility to ensure that that the target markets get increased exposure to allow it to happen.
If this league is to expand , then Russia is an obvious market, There is already the domestic professional league and it should be a case of do they want to join and how many teams ? But teams must go to Russia to play , the Tier 1 nations have to go to the target nations to play games. This raises profile and gives much needed revenue from home gates.
If the Pro league wants to be serious about this expansion , then the national teams have to stop going to the likes of Australia , NZ to tour and instead go to Russia , Georgia , Romania , Spain & Germany and give up a lucrative home international during Autumn to go and play the same countries.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Fri, 02 Oct 2020, 06:31

There can be no franchise in Russian sports. Therefore, only the strongest club from Russia can play in PRO16.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Oct 2020, 19:05

STMKY wrote:There can be no franchise in Russian sports. Therefore, only the strongest club from Russia can play in PRO16.


???

A franchise is a team playing a closed league, without relegation. Russia has a league in this format, KHL. Not all PRO16 are regional teams. Benetton Treviso is basicaly a club that won the PRO14 spot after a bid. Who owns the spot is the Country, that defines how it will select the teams that play there. Italy allowed a club to bid, nothing forbids.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 13:24

Seriously? I always thought that a franchise is a team made up of players from different clubs. There are no franchises in Russia. Our fans don't even know such a concept. Clubs play in the KHL as in all other Russian leagues.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 13:30

The provincial pyramid model you mean, yeah for Super Rugby that's not exactly true. Although players are registered at lower levels, those games are used for rehabbing someone from injury like the Minor leagues in US Hockey and Baseball. They don't really belong to those clubs per se.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 13:46

You see, even I don't know exactly what a franchise is. Although I follow foreign rugby a bit. And 99.99% of Russians don't even know that word. We have club traditions in sports.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 14:06

Effectively a club is a franchise, relatively interchangeable as far as words are concerned.

For the Premiership you could say if a non-shareholder club achieved promotion, they're the only club that is not a franchise.

Historically, most professional sports teams in the US came from clubs, in modern times though we're not promoting any grassroots clubs into any of the top leagues.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 14:52

Super Rugby players that don't play for the All Blacks or for the Springboks do play the whole Mitre10 Cup and Currie Cup. Not sure what you mean... more than this, in NZ they are listed by their Mitre10 Cup province.

Effectively a club is a franchise, relatively interchangeable as far as words are concerned.

For the Premiership you could say if a non-shareholder club achieved promotion, they're the only club that is not a franchise.

Historically, most professional sports teams in the US came from clubs, in modern times though we're not promoting any grassroots clubs into any of the top leagues.


Sorry, it isn't. Premiership wants to be, but in France that's not the case. And in most countries based on promotion-relegation clubs are definitly not equal franchises. The whole soccer culture is based on a club model clearly different from franchise and rugby has the same culture in Europe, South America.... and I'd say Japan too (at least until now, as Top League has a full relegation system in operation).

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:26

That doesn't make those teams clubs. A club is something you pay to be in, not something that pays you.

Super Rugby players that play in the Currie Cup and Mitre 10 do so because their contracts aren't that big.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:28

What? I think we have a difference of concept here.

A club can be professional. That's how professional soccer clubs are called in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa. You'll never hear people calling Barcelona or Real Madrid a "franchise", it is by all means a club. And, therefore, the same thing for professional/semi-pro rugby clubs in Europe, for exemple. BTW, clubs can be multisports, like the two I mentioned, that have professional teams in other sports, notably basketball. And at the same time they have amateur/semi-pro sports as well, like Barcelona's rugby team.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:30

TheStroBro wrote:That doesn't make those teams clubs. A club is something you pay to be in, not something that pays you.

Super Rugby players that play in the Currie Cup and Mitre 10 do so because their contracts aren't that big.

Players and staff can be paid yet members keep paying and are part-owners of the club.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:32

Yep, that too. Specialy because in Europe and Latin America many clubs with professional sports can have social clubs, with swimming pools, tennis courts and etc. That varies from country to country, but the general concept is always "club", never "franchise".
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:33

victorsra wrote:What? I think we have a difference of concept here.

A club can be professional. That's how professional soccer clubs are called in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa. You'll never hear people calling Barcelona or Real Madrid a "franchise", it is by all means a club. And, therefore, the same thing for professional/semi-pro rugby clubs in Europe, for exemple. BTW, clubs can be multisports, like the two I mentioned, that have professional teams in other sports, notably basketball. And at the same time they have amateur/semi-pro sports as well, like Barcelona's rugby team.


Effectively they are just a team in a league.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:35

No, they aren't. They are social entities with members, amateur sports and etc. And they aren't attached to a league. Clubs can be relegated out of the league with a relegation system. And those system don't allow paralel leagues. You can't have two leagues with equal status, like in USA, unless the federation splits a division in regional groups (and still they would be just like conferences, not different leagues). There is a rigid hyerarchy and even a big club can go down from 1st division to 5th division in like 5 years, while the oposite can happen (and happens!) too.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:38

We're literally arguing over semantics. As I put forward many pages ago. The original baseball teams were organized as clubs. And today they are still clubs. We just don't have relegation in our professional leagues. This has much more to do with the fact that our sports federations have limited power here over professional competitions.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 18:42

Also, you can't buy a place in a league. In European/Latin American soccer (and, therefore, rugby too) you can't enter a league with a bid, buying a spot. You need to start in the bottom division of the whole system always. The only way to start in a higher division is buying another club (which is considered by fans the most horrible thing possible...). Relocations almost never happen. You can count in one hand the relocations you know.

BTW, I think the Wasps relocation was the most pacific possible. Which show rugby doesn't generate that much passion, sadly.... (although I know many Londoners disaproved, obviously).

We're literally arguing over semantics. As I put forward many pages ago. The original baseball teams were organized as clubs. And today they are still clubs. We just don't have relegation in our professional leagues. This has much more to do with the fact that our sports federations have limited power here over professional competitions.


I think we aren't. They work essencialy in different ways regarding spots in leagues and how leagues work. Clubs don't own spots in leagues (but in Europe hockey and basketball have "more American" franchise systems in place now... but this is new AFAIK). And they usualy don't keep ownership benefits when relegated, although we need to understand each case individualy.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 20:13

It is definitely not just semantics. In England the rugby clubs and football clubs are all clubs, not franchises. The Netball Superleague teams are all franchises, not clubs. The BBL teams (British Basketball League) are all franchises but some, not all, are also clubs. The clubs have quite a long history which predates the BBL. They are part of the community and have volunteers, youth teams, women's teams etc. If they decide to drop out the the BBL they still continue to exist as clubs. But there are also franchises. The franchises have very different histories which involve relocating several times and name changes. They are companies with the purpose of running a professional sports team. They provide a product which they hope people will pay to consume. They don't have youth teams etc. If they leave the BBL they cease to exist.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 03 Oct 2020, 20:14

TheStroBro wrote:We're literally arguing over semantics. As I put forward many pages ago. The original baseball teams were organized as clubs. And today they are still clubs. We just don't have relegation in our professional leagues. This has much more to do with the fact that our sports federations have limited power here over professional competitions.


The semantics has nothing to do with it, the clubs are different things than the franchises.

"Today they are still clubs"...I have been looking at the websites of MLB clubs but I cannot find a remote mention of the activities that members can perform on the "club", other than buying a ticket or clothing.

In our clubs, from the giants to the tiniest, the members first of all vote in elections and elect their president, committees and subcommittees are formed, assemblies are held to decide things about the club, etc.

We use the club's facilities, since a social fee is paid for that, you can do sports or cultural activities of absolutely all kinds and for all ages, there are people who go to the Club to play bridge to give you an idea, and that is in perhaps the biggest club in Argentina, or have a barbecue and celebrate a birthday. You want to sing in a chorus? Some clubs have one, you want to practice yoga and you're member of a club, probably you can practice it there, and so on and so on...

How many people play baseball in the Yankees Club or Red Sox Club other than the professionals? In the clubs in Argentina, the number of people who play football in a club is much higher than the number of professional players that the club has in the same sport, and didn't talk about the underage players who also play in the club, I mean people of all ages who play as amateur and internally in the club ... because they are members...of a Club

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 01:12

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It is definitely not just semantics. In England the rugby clubs and football clubs are all clubs, not franchises. The Netball Superleague teams are all franchises, not clubs. The BBL teams (British Basketball League) are all franchises but some, not all, are also clubs. The clubs have quite a long history which predates the BBL. They are part of the community and have volunteers, youth teams, women's teams etc. If they decide to drop out the the BBL they still continue to exist as clubs. But there are also franchises. The franchises have very different histories which involve relocating several times and name changes. They are companies with the purpose of running a professional sports team. They provide a product which they hope people will pay to consume. They don't have youth teams etc. If they leave the BBL they cease to exist.


Gonna need you to show me what "members" of many of the Premier League clubs get other than ticket discounts. For example: https://tickets.mancity.com/memberships

https://tickets.brightonandhovealbion.com/memberships

I'm not seeing any ability to be a member of Premier League clubs where you get to use the club facility or have a say in what happens etc.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 03:46

STMKY wrote:You see, even I don't know exactly what a franchise is. Although I follow foreign rugby a bit. And 99.99% of Russians don't even know that word. We have club traditions in sports.


Franchise is a fancy word for brand. It's used as a means for marketing products and sports team these days are considered more of product. Although it doesn't seem to have affected football/soccer. It mostly stems from America, I very rarely hear American sports teams referred to as sporting clubs, with the exception of maybe Baseball and occasionally ice hockey. I don't think I've ever heard of the Dallas Cowboys NFL team being referred to as a club before. I don't like sports clubs being referred to as franchises, it's sounds too cold and harsh. It's crept into sporting clubs down in Australia. Super Rugby teams are referred to as franchises which I dislike.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 07:21

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It is definitely not just semantics. In England the rugby clubs and football clubs are all clubs, not franchises. The Netball Superleague teams are all franchises, not clubs. The BBL teams (British Basketball League) are all franchises but some, not all, are also clubs. The clubs have quite a long history which predates the BBL. They are part of the community and have volunteers, youth teams, women's teams etc. If they decide to drop out the the BBL they still continue to exist as clubs. But there are also franchises. The franchises have very different histories which involve relocating several times and name changes. They are companies with the purpose of running a professional sports team. They provide a product which they hope people will pay to consume. They don't have youth teams etc. If they leave the BBL they cease to exist.


Gonna need you to show me what "members" of many of the Premier League clubs get other than ticket discounts. For example: https://tickets.mancity.com/memberships

https://tickets.brightonandhovealbion.com/memberships

I'm not seeing any ability to be a member of Premier League clubs where you get to use the club facility or have a say in what happens etc.


England doesn't have this same tradition of sports clubs that Europe and South America has. Football clubs are just football clubs. Many rugby clubs have teams in more than one sport. In my experience rugby club membership costs are pretty low and anyone can hire the facilities for functions, members or not. Maybe members get a preferential rate.
Professional football clubs in England are mostly privately owned, but they're not franchises because they don't own a franchise in the league and if they finish bottom of the league they get relegated.
A franchise is a license / share to play in a league that has a franchise model. In Britain leagues like the Netball Superleague and the British Basketball League use a franchise model because I think that's the only model that would facilitate a professional / semi pro league. These sports also have a national pyramid structure below and separate to the professional league.
The Premiership Rugby shares model is similar to a franchise model but it doesn't stop a club being relegated. And even if a club does get relegated and sells its share, like Leeds/Yorkshire, it's still a rugby club.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 08:52

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It is definitely not just semantics. In England the rugby clubs and football clubs are all clubs, not franchises. The Netball Superleague teams are all franchises, not clubs. The BBL teams (British Basketball League) are all franchises but some, not all, are also clubs. The clubs have quite a long history which predates the BBL. They are part of the community and have volunteers, youth teams, women's teams etc. If they decide to drop out the the BBL they still continue to exist as clubs. But there are also franchises. The franchises have very different histories which involve relocating several times and name changes. They are companies with the purpose of running a professional sports team. They provide a product which they hope people will pay to consume. They don't have youth teams etc. If they leave the BBL they cease to exist.


Gonna need you to show me what "members" of many of the Premier League clubs get other than ticket discounts. For example: https://tickets.mancity.com/memberships

https://tickets.brightonandhovealbion.com/memberships

I'm not seeing any ability to be a member of Premier League clubs where you get to use the club facility or have a say in what happens etc.

I don't know the current legal status of sports clubs in England, but I think I can understand this through Spanish lenses.

In 1992 all clubs playing in professional competitions were supposed to become what we call Sociedades Anónimas Deportivas so they could legally respond in case of going bankrupt. Only clubs proving they had made money in the previous few years were allowed to remain members clubs (Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Athletic Club, Osasuna).

These four teams are the only ones that remain publicly owned in our top tiers and their members vote présidents, must approve accountability... It's true that they have little by little tended to be more like the rest. I've got a friend Who is a Real Madrid member and used to go to their swimming pool many years ago. That no longer exists. They sold their properties in Madrid city centre to modernise the team and pay debts.

So even though we say all are football clubs, only these four still have members as such. And these four have progressively followed the same path as others and have lost the club meaning that still remains in Argentina for example, although some aspects resist (FC Barcelona being multisport, with both professionnal and amateur sections). Yet we keep calling all of them clubs because they were born as such and only transformed because the law forced them too, with some people still holding minority ownerships derived from that process.

Anyway things vary widely from country to country, even from sport to sport (only happens here in football and basketball). In Germany no single owner is allowed to hold more than 49% of a club.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Thomas » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 10:51

England Legal status of Sports Clubs

https://www.sportenglandclubmatters.com ... nisations/

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