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Inter-continental competitons

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 14:10

If they have money, why not founding a new team full of international players?

Tell me one reason to have the Cheetahs instead of, for exemple, a Saransk RC with money to hire big names.

I understand Cheetahs would raise global awareness to the league, but if a Russian club hires an ex Springbok the effect would be the same (which is what Japan does, just hire big names and people know their league exist and is strong).

So, if you have Russian guys with money to invest in rugby, well, just to it, in your own clubs!

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 14:44

We don't have good Russian players even for 8-10 teams. Not to mention the new teams. The new team will be able to take a maximum of 8 foreigners. But where can she get 25-30 Russians? Read Krylov's "Swan, Cancer and Pike". This describes the such new team 100%. When you have players of different levels from Top-14 to Federal 5 in one team.
There are almost no advantages for Russian rugby in this version of the new team. But moving Cheetahs has a lot of advantages. This is the world top level team played. Our rugby will receive annually about 20 Challenge Cup level games for all our pro clubs. This is many times more than we have had in the last 5 years. Now the problem of Russian rugby, we are boiling in our swamp. Big budgets, big salaries, but no international games. This leads to comical cases of Russia losing out to Belgian beer-bellies.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby ficcp » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 18:34

In the short term Cheetahs would contribute to the Russian League, 20 matches at the SAF team level are a lot! But in the long term you need to create and develop U 20, U 18 and U 16 teams in order to increase the base of future players and be able to sustain that better League in the future. The japanese model worked out for them but it required several years of investment by the clubs. Maybe a succesful mixture of both models would establish a strong League for several years which would be reinforced by the players formed in Russia.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 18:54

Russia and Georgia should put their political disagreements to one side and work together to establish the KRL.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby ficcp » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 19:03

I would like to read the opinion of the georgian posters on that matter.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 08:34

Think right! The combination of various factors is an ideal recipe for Russia, and not just a copy of the Japanese way, as our Brazilian comrade. We don't have 12 years to develop like the Japanese did.
What concerns the participation of Georgians in the KRL. I offer them a great option. All the best players from the Georgian championship gather in two teams Dinamo Tbilisi (Dinamo stadium with 50,000 seats) and RC Batumi (new stadium with 20,000 seats). They will be strong teams with huge fans support. At the games against Cheetahs and the best Russian clubs, they will be sold out. In terms of surroundings, these will be games of the Georgia-Russia level. Just not once every 2 years. And several games every year! Russia invites Georgians. But Georgians need to leave their political claims outside of sports.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 08:43

STMKY wrote:Think right! The combination of various factors is an ideal recipe for Russia, and not just a copy of the Japanese way, as our Brazilian comrade. We don't have 12 years to develop like the Japanese did.
What concerns the participation of Georgians in the KRL. I offer them a great option. All the best players from the Georgian championship gather in two teams Dinamo Tbilisi (Dinamo stadium with 50,000 seats) and RC Batumi (new stadium with 20,000 seats). They will be strong teams with huge fans support. At the games against Cheetahs and the best Russian clubs, they will be sold out. In terms of surroundings, these will be games of the Georgia-Russia level. Just not once every 2 years. And several games every year! Russia invites Georgians. But Georgians need to leave their political claims outside of sports.


Now this is sensible, but maybe the Georgians need some more thrashings by Europe's tier 1. They're still too proud.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 08:50

And how will the KRL prevent the Georgians from playing in the Top-14? The idea is to bring together the best players from the Championship of Georgia to Dinamo Tbilisi and RC Batumi, and possibly several Georgians will return from abroad. But not from the top clubs. It is obvious that salaries in Toulon and Montpellier will be higher than in Tbilisi and Batumi.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 14:00

What are you talking about? I'm not telling you to copy anybody. I'm just saying the obvious. You either invite a team that can play at home (like the Chinese team in KHL) or you just put money in your own teams hiring big names (Japanese rugby is just an exemple, but everybody does that). What is grotesque is to have a foreign team in exile (a foreign team paying home matches away). The only exemples of it are temporary development projects like Pampas XV. Not even Russia does that. You have foreign teams in your leagues but they play at home.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 16:27

What a deer you are. I've explained it dozens of times already. If our teams do not have the opportunity to play in the Challenge Cup or Rapid with great teams. But we have money. We can invite the top team to our championship. Then our clubs will receive at least 20 top games per year. This is not counting other advantages. And if Cheetahs agree to a deep integration project, then in 5 years they will become a Russian team. But both are interesting. Their choice.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 17:10

Maybe Free State could secede and join the Russian Federation. Like Crimea did.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 17:14

You say you want better matches. This you can achieve by simply making your own clubs better. If you want to face foreign players, because they are better (and that's what the Cheetahs are), you only need to make your own clubs better, hiring better players. If you have money, just do it. A 9 years old child understands this.

And why on Earth Cheetahs would want to become a Russian team? Do you actualy know what the Cheetahs are? They are a century old provincial team that represents a South African region (with a very particular identity, btw), with century old rivalries and actual fans. They will keep playing the Currie Cup, for exemple. And, BTW, Currie Cup calendar overlaps with the Russian league, which leads to another good question: what would be Cheetahs' focus? Would they have 2 squads? They had while playing PRO14 at the same time with the Currie Cup and the PRO14 was the focus. But to completely relocate is like to say "oh, let's move Rubin Kazan to Australia".

What you can argue is that they can create a partner club abroad (like the Saracens did, like Manchester City does... or like the Falcons did, making that ill-fated partnership with the Malaysian Rugby Union and that I only guess had some money from Twiggy Forrest, desperate to have a competitive league for his Force). You are ignorant enough to ask the right questions, so I'll help: is the plan to copy the Falcons (Valke)? Or is the plan to keep playing home matches in Bloemfontein?

If the plan is to follow the Falcons (Valke), well, this means play both (Currie Cup and Russian league) at the same time. This also means it only worths if there is someone putting money in the project. South African Rugby won't put money. The Falcons had money from Malaysia simply because a Malaysian team would be totaly crushed in the GRR, so they needed a team full of foreign players to start introducing their own. So, for them, it made sense to "buy" the Falcons project (well, I guess, because I never saw an article about who was paying for the Malaysia Valke). In Russia, you don't need that.

For the Cheetahs, the business in Russia would be finding an investor. They are not searching for new fans because Russian rugby doesn't have good attendances. This would be a long term goal, not a 2021 goal. They are desperate because they lost the PRO14 spot, so they are first searching for an investor. Ok, so a Russian investor should be interested in the Cheetahs because he wants a winning team from day to night, right? Is that the reason? The Cheetahs aren't a valuable brand and he would be stuck with the fact the Cheetahs still must play the Currie Cup and etc.

It makes sense to have international teams in a league, because they ad value, ad fans. This only happens when the deal is good for both. If a team must leave its own structure, its own fans and relocate, it needs investment from this third party (and it is common - and traumatic - within the same league, usualy because it involves the spot in the league, when the league doesn't want expansion to avoid changing the share of the other stakeholders). But if the the third party (the Russian guy) has money, the most logical thing is to create his own brand, his club (a Russian club, connected with the fans... which makes sense in a so nationalistic country, btw...) and basicaly hire Cheetahs', former Kings', Jaguares', PIs and other top players. Oh, "but the Cheetahs are just trying to sell the PRO14 team and make it two completely different organizations, the Currie Cup and the Russian league teams". Then, again, why would someone buy a non-valuable brand like the Cheetahs? You see we are going on in circles. The "Falcons model" makes little sense in Russia, unless you show a killer argument and closes this series of questions. You haven't, you won't - at least until this whole negociation is clearer.

Also, you are not adressing the obvious fact: how can Russia promise EPCR competitions? If Russia has money, buy a stake of EPCR - that's the best investment you could ever do!

The whole problem of this discussion is you being a moron. If I don't discuss like a moron, you basicaly don't understand. Once more, you are useless as a poster. Big waste of cells.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby ficcp » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 18:39

Victor : In which competitions will the Cheetah participate next year? In the Currie Cup and the project of a SAF Superugby. It is not enough for that franchise, they are showing a very good level in the current SAF tournament.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 19:08

I'm already tired of explaining elementary things to him dozens of times. Translate this for him.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 19:15

I think next year (next season) Cheetahs will play friendlies against other teams without top level competitions. Maybe a Jaguares team. Maybe whatever team is relegated from the Premiership. Cheetahs, Pumas and Griquas could play a mini tournament, maybe with a Kings phoenix team (unlikely).
After that I think a place in the European Challenge Cup should be the aim.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 19:33

STMKY wrote:I'm already tired of explaining elementary things to him dozens of times. Translate this for him.


Don't fool yourself. You haven't answered anything. You can't pass the simplest questions. Even Vova knows that.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 19:40

ficcp wrote:Victor : In which competitions will the Cheetah participate next year? In the Currie Cup and the project of a SAF Superugby. It is not enough for that franchise, they are showing a very good level in the current SAF tournament.



That's the question. Until January they have the Super Rugby Unlocked/Currie Cup 2020.

Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks enter the PRO16 only in September (if confirmed). The South African Rugby Union promised another competiton in South Africa in the first semestre, probably between March and June.

There is a chance that by March the Cheetahs enter MLR or the Russian League. What we are trying to discuss here (if the Russian poster here allowed) is how. IMO, for the Cheetahs the Russian league would be interesting if they could host matches in South Africa (like they did in PRO14) and if the Russian Rugby Union could guarantee a Challenge Cup spot for them.

ATM, Russian clubs only play the Challenge Cup invited, as they don't have a direct spot in the Challenge Cup, as they aren't EPCR members. So, it would be up to EPCR to allow this as well.

Remember EPCR did not allow Cheetahs and Kings to play the Challenge or the Champions Cup while they were playing PRO14. If they allow the Cheetahs in the Challenge Cup, they would need to allow the Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks in the Champions Cup as well.

The Russian poster here suggests (without realising) that the Cheetahs would cheat EPCR and South Africa Rugby Union pretending to be Russians.

International Rugby's spirit after the pandemics is "everything is on the table". This is clear. But things follow some logic.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:36

victorsra wrote:Don't fool yourself. You haven't answered anything. You can't pass the simplest questions. Even Vova knows that.

Do not mention Vovas name in vain! :twisted:
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:37

Vova12 wrote:
victorsra wrote:Don't fool yourself. You haven't answered anything. You can't pass the simplest questions. Even Vova knows that.

Do not mention Vovas name in vain! :twisted:

You became my favorite Russian. Who would believe?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:38

There will be no rugby news untl spring, so I afraid to imagine what these usless discussions will result in. 8-)
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:43

Vova12 wrote:There will be no rugby news untl spring, so I afraid to imagine what these usless discussions will result in. 8-)


Do you follow a winter sport? Maybe there could be a bandy or ice hockey thread.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:43

victorsra wrote:You became my favorite Russian. Who would believe?

No, you and STMKY are just made for each other! :D
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 20:45

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Do you follow a winter sport? Maybe there could be a bandy or ice hockey thread.

In Moscow played football and hockey. Here in village i will play these games on computer) 8-)
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 21:01

Vova12 wrote:
victorsra wrote:You became my favorite Russian. Who would believe?

No, you and STMKY are just made for each other! :D

:cry:

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby ficcp » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 23:01

victorsra wrote:
ficcp wrote:Victor : In which competitions will the Cheetah participate next year? In the Currie Cup and the project of a SAF Superugby. It is not enough for that franchise, they are showing a very good level in the current SAF tournament.



That's the question. Until January they have the Super Rugby Unlocked/Currie Cup 2020.

Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks enter the PRO16 only in September (if confirmed). The South African Rugby Union promised another competiton in South Africa in the first semestre, probably between March and June.

There is a chance that by March the Cheetahs enter MLR or the Russian League. What we are trying to discuss here (if the Russian poster here allowed) is how. IMO, for the Cheetahs the Russian league would be interesting if they could host matches in South Africa (like they did in PRO14) and if the Russian Rugby Union could guarantee a Challenge Cup spot for them.

ATM, Russian clubs only play the Challenge Cup invited, as they don't have a direct spot in the Challenge Cup, as they aren't EPCR members. So, it would be up to EPCR to allow this as well.

So, the Cheetahs team has to find its way. Anyway, I do not see the MLR teams travelling to SA due to the implicit financial burden , what about the russians?. It is a valuable team looking for a destiny. Was not possible for the SAF Union to get a fifth place into the PRO 14 or 16?

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