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Inter-continental competitons

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 14 Dec 2020, 15:59

Image

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 Dec 2020, 16:24

STMKY wrote:Image


Now it looks like official.

Can you send me it by piggeon?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Tue, 15 Dec 2020, 14:31

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/pro-14/2 ... tory.shtml

Exclus de l'actuel Pro 14, les Cheetahs espèrent rebondir en Europe. La franchise de Bloemfontein a fait acte de candidature pour intégrer l'Intercontinental Shield, à laquelle participent des clubs espagnols, allemands et russes. Les organisateurs annonceront leur décision en février prochain. La prochaine édition aura lieu en octobre 2021 et pourrait qualifier les meilleurs en Challenge Cup.


Can I assume we are talking about a small cup?

And, well, what happens if the Premiership expands to 14? There wouldn't be anymore 2 spots for T2s. This means they would need EPCR willingly changing the format of its competitions.

Also, if the Cheetahs want a small in the Challenge Cup, Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Stormers would want the same, I presume. Many things involved in those decisions.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 15 Dec 2020, 15:46

You can assume they don't know of what they are talking...
Rugbyrama isn't the most reliable site.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 15 Dec 2020, 16:01

They are just translating what was published in South Africa. We won't know much until Rugger, RUR or Spanish clubs decide to open their big mouths :D

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 02:20


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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 06:18

Says a lot that they always talk about how it’s good for the national team yada yada, but never if it will be appealing to fans.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Grzegorz B. » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 19:55

Armchair Fan wrote:They are just translating what was published in South Africa. We won't know much until Rugger, RUR or Spanish clubs decide to open their big mouths :D


Rugger? There it is: https://rugger.info/news/37950
"Intercontinental Shield", only Russia, Spain, Germany, Cheetahs and maybe Romania. Qualification to Challenge Cup (?).

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 21:11

Still not much info. It is basicaly "a tournament". Can mean anything.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 21:13

I honestly fail to see how Spain and Germany are set in stone. You all know how chaotic Spanish bodies have been when offered the chance to play in Europe and I don't see who would fund a German entry. And on the opposite side, we have Netherlands going on the record about their intention to field a franchise but nobody mentions them...

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Figaro » Mon, 28 Dec 2020, 19:35

Confirmation on WalesOnline that Pro16 structure for 2021-22 onwards will be a single league of 16, with 15 home or away fixtures, and three additional derbies within the respective nations, for 18 total fixtures. Each European team will therefore play 2 fixtures in SA.

A good arrangement - I think people didn't like the conferences, never felt a very European way of doing things. A bit odd that Zebre and Benetton will play each other four times in the season but there you go.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Dec 2020, 19:43

And Glasgow and Edinburgh.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... d-19530174

"Well, our understanding is the annual South African payment will go up from £6m to £10m with their number of teams doubling.

That works out at around £800,000 for each of the four Welsh regions, money they would not be getting if the competition reverted to a PRO12]

People will obviously ask whether the extra income will be eaten into by additional travel costs, as each team will now face two guaranteed away games in South Africa

With the Cheetahs and Kings on board, you had either one or two trips, dependent on how the fixtures fell.

Under that set-up, each team was given a travel allowance out of the competition’s central pot, depending on whether they had two matches or one.".


So, Saffas paying to be there.
"We are also told there will be no league matches in Europe on Six Nations weekends, with the South African sides playing their derbies during that period.".


Good.

But this leads to two crucial question: when TRC will be played. If it is August-September, when the Springboks will have their off-season? Maybe the best would have their off-season during the 6N, to keep TRC in August-September....

Or maybe they will rest in December and have pre-season in January, with their PRO16 matches in that period (all derbis) going to February-March? If so, ok, but if they enter the Champions Cup things would need to change in 2022-23.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Tue, 29 Dec 2020, 21:24

[/quote]Good.

But this leads to two crucial question: when TRC will be played. If it is August-September, when the Springboks will have their off-season? Maybe the best would have their off-season during the 6N, to keep TRC in August-September....

Or maybe they will rest in December and have pre-season in January, with their PRO16 matches in that period (all derbis) going to February-March? If so, ok, but if they enter the Champions Cup things would need to change in 2022-23.[/quote]

Would they play the games in the Autumn international window again ? With the summer tours scheduled for next year alongside the Lions being in SA there are few windows to play a TRC next year. The impact of COVID may mean the Feb/Mach window is too soon for SA club or country teams to travel so may mean that the only window would be a similar set up to the 2020 TRC where it is hosted in one country and played during the Autumn International window.


Figaro wrote:Confirmation on WalesOnline that Pro16 structure for 2021-22 onwards will be a single league of 16, with 15 home or away fixtures, and three additional derbies within the respective nations, for 18 total fixtures. Each European team will therefore play 2 fixtures in SA.

A good arrangement - I think people didn't like the conferences, never felt a very European way of doing things. A bit odd that Zebre and Benetton will play each other four times in the season but there you go.


Will the Italians and Scots actually play each other four times each ???? Think it would make more sense to have the Scots and Italians play each other again in the reverse of the original league fixtures, appreciate only one of those will be a 'local' derby but more logical

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Dec 2020, 22:00

Rebus, I think you're right. Glasgow vs Edinburgh four times every year is too much.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 10:54

18 regular league fixtures won't remove international clashes.

18 + play offs (likely 2 weeks) + 9 European games = 29 weeks. With the internationals still taking their 11-13 games toll the international players will still only appear in half to 1/3rd of their club's games.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 16:44

Well, to keep international rugby the way it is, Super Rugby was the model of maximum number of club matches for players. If European club rugby copies football models, it will obviously clash. But clubs asked for Unions help during the pandemic, right? Unions need money generated by national teams matches. If clubs want Unions to pay for players, Unions will need more matches and so on and on. Endless problem unless one side deeply changes (either clubs reducing calendar, or national teams using 100% central contracted players, which means operating like clubs...).
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:06

As COVID has shown there is not enough money in world rugby. The balance should be to get more money into the club game so the National teams are not the sole revenue stream for clubs and you can play less internationals.
There needs to be more competitions where there is significant prize money to encourage private individuals to run rugby teams , after all who is going to run a Scottish club in the knowledge you will lose 4-5 million pounds a year.
Aslo , the more private run clubs there are , there is less dependency on the national team to choose from only a few clubs.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:24

National teams are crucial for the expansion of the game. They are the entities anyone understands. Club rugby is for rugby fans, who are already inside the sport. National teams break that. In the T1 pov, yes, clubs need to generate more money. But if rugby wants to become global, it needs national teams. A meaningful global national teams system.

This is true in the history of football, basketball.... FIFA WC was crucial in the expansion of the game, as the Olympics for basketball. Basketball was already a big thing around the world when NBA became a global TV phenomenum. Outside USA, national teams played an important role. This is true for almost all team sports before live TV/internet globalized sports leagues. Rugby entered the 21st century without any meaningful professional league with the power of NBA/NFL/UCL etc. The job was left to the national teams. And this is not a real problem, if you have the right system in place.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:43

There should be shorter international windows and more meaningful regional competions at both club and country level.
Less emphasis on T1 v T1 games and more on trying to get a wider pool of countries involved. Am more in favour of dropping the Lions tours and replacing them with regional competions , also dropping the summer tours and replacing them with world club championships.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:50

Unfortunatly T1s think only in the short term, the bill the need to pay in the end of the month.... they need T1 vs T1 right now, so, that's what we'll watch. The only way to change is someone injecting money now, thinking about a long term process, whilst accepting short term losses. T1s already rejected billions when Pichot brought that project. Imagine if they had accepted the deal, before pandemics...
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:54

Rebus wrote:There should be shorter international windows and more meaningful regional competions at both club and country level.
Less emphasis on T1 v T1 games and more on trying to get a wider pool of countries involved. Am more in favour of dropping the Lions tours and replacing them with regional competions , also dropping the summer tours and replacing them with world club championships.


I am actually favorable to Lions Tours continuing, but they can't just go to the same three nations. Use the property to grow the game. Yet, the world league concept protected the Lions tours. The Home Nations Unions should not be protected during that period whatsoever.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 19:57

The Lions Tours should be basicaly a Home Nations problem. Home Nations negociating the Lions with their clubs, period. It shouldn't be in the July window. If they want to keep the Lions because it generates money and it is traditional, fine, keep it and use part of that money to pay the clubs for the players. Just don't hijack a WR window for that.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Rebus » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 20:17

Exactly , nowadays the Lions should be either the sevens team playing in the olympics or a select team from the home nations under 20's who can tour at any time without disrupting the international calendar.
If they want to use a window have it during the Autumn internationals and invite the best overseas team across to play. They can play a three game series in different venues within Ireland , Scotland , England and Wales whilst each of the national teams play home internationals on the same weekends. No disruption to the global calendar , the 4 Lions nations can share the proceeds appropriately , and each of them can play internationals at the same time.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 20:29

victorsra wrote:Well, to keep international rugby the way it is, Super Rugby was the model of maximum number of club matches for players. If European club rugby copies football models, it will obviously clash. But clubs asked for Unions help during the pandemic, right? Unions need money generated by national teams matches. If clubs want Unions to pay for players, Unions will need more matches and so on and on. Endless problem unless one side deeply changes (either clubs reducing calendar, or national teams using 100% central contracted players, which means operating like clubs...).


As ever this totally misunderstands and mischaracterises the situation. The clubs have not copied or moved anything, they evolved from literally the same sport with the same calendar. They have always, literally for ever, played from September to last week of April. The only extensions have come AFTER the extension of the international calendar. They asked for money AFTER the union took their players.

The clubs have not asked the union for help. The union have given them even less money than usual but taken the players for the same amount of time, as is their right under the deal signed in 2016. It has been the central government that has had to bail both of them out. The union has not helped at all, and it is very aggravating to me that people think that. It is totally untrue to the point I cannot even think of the crossed wires to generate it, they have not even helped junior clubs with money.

The unions play more because they regard themselves as the game, the sole purpose of the game, and everyone else as shit on their shoe who should be grateful for the internationals existence.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 30 Dec 2020, 20:31

Rebus wrote:There should be shorter international windows and more meaningful regional competions at both club and country level.
Less emphasis on T1 v T1 games and more on trying to get a wider pool of countries involved. Am more in favour of dropping the Lions tours and replacing them with regional competions , also dropping the summer tours and replacing them with world club championships.


this. though I'm not interested in a world club cup particularly.

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