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2023 Draw, Thoughts?

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 04:40

Rugby World Cup tries to position itself as one of the biggest and prestigious world cups in the world. Only it's not, it's a game that is consistently in a battle between the past it can't move away from, and the future it so greatly desires. The result is an inconsistent approach to the games biggest tournament. No World Cup, not soccer, not basketball, not cricket, not hockey, would ever schedule its draw this early.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby Canalina » Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 06:21

I can't understand how the fact that the draw was made three years before the games could make it "a joke" and how could it be an other unjustice perpretrated by the evil british nations; I can't also understand how the mid-week games could be an other proof of the evil british nations unfairness, and how that could be a sign of disinterest toward Asian nations (they gave the Cup to Japan but it doesn't mean anything, instead the fact that there were mid-week games means that they don't care about Asian nations)

According to the data realeased by World Rugby itself, Vietnam and I don't remember which other Indochina nation were in the Top10 chart about the highest number of Tv spectators during the last RWC

Anyway, this is the quarterfinals draw according to the Mid-Ol. Pool A teams meet pool B teams in the quarterfinals, I didn't know

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby antlat » Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 06:36

My predicitions,

France (A1) vs Scotland (B2)
Argentina (D1) vs Fiji (C2)
South Africa (B1) vs New Zealand (A2)
Australia (C1) vs Japan (D2)

Dont know why, but having England miss out make me happy!!...lol

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby novac » Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 09:41

Considering the team form at this moment Pool C would be the weakest. Even Fiji could top the group. Georgia (Europe 1) if they don't improve they will miss a big chance to get again a third place and automatic qualification to the RWC 2027.
Will France beat New Zealand and top Pool A and avoid a QF clash with South Africa? They've beaten before the AB in World Cups so their chances are quite big.
Pool B is only a battle for QF between Ireland and Scotland. Maybe in 2023 the Scots will be more successful and get a QF place.
Pool D is also a battle for QF between Japan and Argentina. The two draws against Australia and the win against New Zealand from this fall doesn't really show that Argentina is superior to the Sunrise country. Who knows what will happen in the next three years. The draws against Australia shows only that Wallabies is not anymore the scary team we knew and the win against New Zealand was a strong fight from the argentinian captain Matera which encouraged all the other players. Now, he is not the captain Courage anymore and I don't know if he will play again for the Pumas.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 14:07

Hernan14 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
victorsra wrote:I think one of the key issues for WR about the schedule of a RWC is one we haven't mentioned: weekend matches vs midweek matches. Rugby is not soccer, therefore matches kicking off from 0h to 16h on weekdays are a bad thing even for T1s. FIFA doesn't care, there are too many soccer fans, they adapt. But rugby is different. And I'm not talking about the host countries, I'm talking about the time people will watch matches in their own countries. That's a big issue.

This means, if the RWC 2027 is in Australia, midweek matches at night in Australia are ok for NZ, PIs or Japan, but very bad if they involve Europeans, SA, Argentina.... for exemple, French and British audiences are still crucial for the success of the RWC. Of the 12 matches of each round, let's say at least 8 would need to be in the weekend.


That vision that rugby is different is what, one and once again, doesn't allow its development. If fans in their own countries are not going to watch their national team, they will not do so on the weekend or in midweek.

Rugby is no different, it is a sport just like the rest, but with less desire on the part of its central organism to grow.

In the same way that if everything is organized for the French and British audiences, close everything, let them play at Twickenham and Saint-Denis and that's it.

The first round of the World Cup in Japan started on a Friday and ended on a Sunday, there were 4 first-round weekends, with 8 matches per round, they could have played all 8 match of each round from Friday to Sunday, giving a more fair schedule to all, but not, they did the opposite, there were more games Wednesday and Thursday than Friday for example...with less time rest, Rugby not is different, is inequal with his members.


Sorry, Rugby isn't different. Football is.

The thing is every fan counts for rugby, therefore the time of the match counts. In the middle of a working day, you'll only get the rugby fans, but you won't get many new fans. On a weekend or on a midweek night, you can get new fans. That's the thing.


Please Victor, don't take it personally.

You know very well that the argument that Rugby is different is used to justify absolutely everything. After the draw, I would see comments (not here) and when someone said it was ridiculous or didn't make sense, the first argument was: "Rugby is different", then came the "you don't know anything, you sure watch football."

If they want new TV viewers, they should give a damn about French and British audiences, they would watch Asia (absolutely all sports target Asia).

I already said it in the previous comment anyway, if they cared about getting new fans, they had everything in 2019 and in the previous World Cups to place all the games from Friday to Sunday, and at the same time be more fair with the rest times of the teams, but they did NOT do it, because they are unequal in their decisions

The draw has just been carried out, 3 years before, using rankings from 4 years before, how is the order of the games? In which cities does each country play its matches? There are not even the 20 classified teams, it is not serious in any sport.

I looked for it but didn't find it, perhaps the fixture and venues of the different matches are already defined and I am the one who doesn't know it, if anyone has that information, I will appreciate it and remove my comment that the RWC draws is the least serious draw of any World Cup of any sport.


Relax, man, it is not because many times I disagree strongly that I'd take things personaly. I don't.

But in fact, I don't disagree with you in any way here. I agree the idea of rugby being different is a problem, that's why I said I believe what is different is soccer. As much as I agree with you rugby needs expansion, we all know the current administration is still too conservative and they won't make revolutions. That's definitly a process. If RWC 2027 is expanded, they should think of definitly change the approach by 2031. But in 2027 I'm afraid it would still be very convenient to have a properly designed schedule that optimises audience where rugby is popular and big in numbers.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 22 Dec 2020, 12:29

POSTED 8 DAYS AGO

If WR did not change their minds,
the scheme -- SEMI'FINAL PAIRINGS should be as follows:

(A1-B2) - (D1-C2)
(C1-D2) - (B1-A2)

:::

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby Hernan14 » Tue, 22 Dec 2020, 20:34

Canalina wrote:I can't understand how the fact that the draw was made three years before the games could make it "a joke" and how could it be an other unjustice perpretrated by the evil british nations; I can't also understand how the mid-week games could be an other proof of the evil british nations unfairness, and how that could be a sign of disinterest toward Asian nations (they gave the Cup to Japan but it doesn't mean anything, instead the fact that there were mid-week games means that they don't care about Asian nations)

According to the data realeased by World Rugby itself, Vietnam and I don't remember which other Indochina nation were in the Top10 chart about the highest number of Tv spectators during the last RWC

Anyway, this is the quarterfinals draw according to the Mid-Ol. Pool A teams meet pool B teams in the quarterfinals, I didn't know


Maybe if you read well what others write, maybe you would understand why it looks like a joke.

Nobody said evil british nations ... unfortunately, the changes that WR have been made were after the X difficulties that some island nations have had in the RWC's and not because of a desire for change. They made changes when some of those nations were affected.

Regarding mid-weeks matches, it doesn't have to do with a certain unfairness in favor of the British nations (I already made it clear that no one said evil at any time), but rather unfairness for some teams due to the inequity in the assembly of the fixtures, with the same format, it can be assembled at the same time, same rest times, something that does NOT happen.

And neither did anyone say anything about the disinterest towards Asia, my answer was to Victor who mentioned the British and French audiences, when all sports prioritize television (and consequently interest and greater practice of sport) towards the Asian market, for a monetary interest of course, but also to have more capital to invest in the rest of the World, if the intention and decisions of WR about the TV are based on two markets that have practically reached their expansion ceiling, it is an obsolete commercial strategy and potentially poor, expansion is achieved in markets NOT captured, not in markets already captured.

Going back to why the RWC draw is a joke.

The idea of ​​holding a televised raffle with all the pomp and not in a dark room, between old men smoking and drinking whiskey is to generate interest in that World Cup ... if you made 3 years before, well, only some will remember that once a draw has been made (who? The new fans?). The idea is to generate expectation in the public, this is the opposite.

Second, it is a draw without the 20 countries that will participate, always talking about the strategy towards the general public, how do you sell a draw for a World Cup if only 12 countries are known and in the rest of the countries, the people don't have the slightest idea if his country will participate (remind the idea of ​​generate expectation).

We know it, but most of the public doesn't, nor is it known how the qualifiers will be carried out and we have already drawn the groups of the WC, that not is a joke.

In any draw, not only are the groups defined, the order of the matches is known, in which cities the teams will play ... of course, not in the RWC draw.


All sports order:

How the Qualifiers are played? (all nations members involved)
Playing the Qualifiers (almost all nations members involved)
Qualifing (or not)
WC Draw (The groups, the venues and order of matches of the teams are know)
Playing the WC (or not)


WR:

WC Draw (Some teams of the groups are know, venues and order of matches of the teams some day will be know)
How the Qualifiers are played? Wait please
Qualifing (or not)
Playing the WC (or not)


Please Canalina, when WR make the draw of the matches order, kindly let me know.

Joking aside, really, all the time you misrepresent my words, kindly, reread my posts without bad intention.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby Canalina » Tue, 22 Dec 2020, 23:02

You wrote… “all in World Rugby is managed by the Islands”… “in the first opportunity that any team from the Islands were harmed, everything will change. I'm sorry, but absolutely everything in WR is handled with respect to the teams of the Islands and it is necessary to begin to admit it”, “I have my doubts, that even with 24, the schedule is fair, they will always look for a way to handle it”, “it is the way that WR is managed, it doesn't care about real development of rugby, it cares about money”, “Rugby is no different, it is a sport just like the rest, but with less desire on the part of its central organism to grow”..., so I can’t help my self on seeing in your words a bias toward the big nations and on thinking that when you talk about unfairness in the fixtures you are meaning unfairness toward the T2 nations. But maybe I'm wrong.

About the famous “joke” (I’ve just checked the forum search engine: there are 750 results for “joke” and 2 results for “awesome”), I really can’t understand why having a draw three years before is so terrible. We still don’t know day-dates and venues, so what? The moment when they will appear will be an other occasion to attract interest, instead of publishing pools, dates and venues in the same moment. We still don’t know all the 20 finalists: this could have attracted less interest from the future finalist nations that still don’t know that they will be it, but on the other hand this could have attracted more general interest because there are like 50 nations still hoping to qualify, while if you make a draw when you have all the names of the 20 finalists you basically have just 20 nations interested. Furthermore, an anticipated draw could lead to a major interest about the qualifiers, because for example the italian fans now know that the Africa Cup 2022 will produce the name of the nation insterted in the Italy’s pool.
But, hey, no, the draw is made by World Rugby, so let’s find just the negative aspects!

If not all the nations are going to take part to the RWC qualifiers is, I think, because of the continental confederations, not because of WR: the Africa Cup is open to all the member nations, this push to think that every continental confederation is free (or relatively free) to organize the qualifiers as they want. And if we still don’t know how some Qualifiers will be played is because those 6-years-old-kid-minded leaders of Sudamerica Rugby decided to quit the American Championship just to make a vulnus to the “traitors” of the North.
Maybe WR has not desire of developing rugby as many of you think, but if I was a south american fan I would be more worried about the conservatorism/weaknesses of Argentina and South America than about those of World Rugby.
If Sudamerica Rugby, managed by Uru and Arg, stopped to organize unfair RWC qualifiers in one only venue, if Sudamerica Rugby stopped to exclude nations from the RWC qualifiers (Peru, Venezuela, Costarica), if Sudamerica Rugby stopped to take kiddish decisions like the cancellation of the Americas Championship, if Argentina began to develop a decent women movement, if Argentina hadn’t the only rugby players in the World beating and wounding people in the pubs, if Argentina hadn’t national team players writing racist jokes on twitter, if an Argentinian player hadn’t hit a 50 kilos italian woman referee risking to break her back… maybe rugby would be better. Despite those old conservator people of World Rugby

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby carbonero » Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 16:05

We do focus on our issues. Half the shit we write in against the UAR, Pichot, Piñeyrúa, etc. And our local problems don't exonerate WR from criticism.

There is a consensus not only in this forum but in the general rugby public that having the draw three years in advance is anticlimactic. In a French RWC that doesn’t need that sort of time to sell tickets. In the middle of a pandemic, where some nations haven’t been able to play since the last tournament (including the reigning champions). No other sport operates this way. It is fair criticism. How can you interpret that as blind hate towards WR?

Also, stop getting triggered by the word conservative. You like the status quo. You support the caste system within the sport. You still think that there is enough leeway for emerging nations to break through. However, every RWC draw is a reminder of the lousy job that WR and T1s have done in growing the game.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby Raven » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 01:28

@Canalina I disagree with quite a lot of what you state above but I won't quote and answer sentence by sentence cause we'd be forever discussing something none of us has the absolute truth about. Nevertheless, I wanna participate in answering a few things you mention;

Personally I don't think it matters if we make the draw per se now or in 2 more years, but doing it in a year like this one, taking the rankings from the begining of the year, and not postponing (as so many things have been) is weird, I wouldn't call it a "joke" though, but it's unclear why they HAD to do it this way. One could suspect that it may have been in favor of some nations and their form -given that the 6 Nations had already started and how the Int. Tests had been lined up-, but nobody can be certain. Regardless, why not postpone given that various teams who are already qualified couldn't play in 2020? Or in Fiji's case for example, played, but only one game against a team ranked behind them that had no effect in the ranking? and I mean it as an example, I'm not saying we should postpone ONLY cause Fiji couldn't play (OK, the "draw date" had been announced and THEN, Covid struck, SO? COVID struck more than once this year!, push it forward until you have a clearer picture...) So you cannot postpone and it has to be in December 2020, then why take the rankings from January? Don't take the word from the forum, see what went on in Social Media... eveybody felt it was handled poorly. They could have acted the same way as they did about "postponing" the residency rule change...

But @carbonero beat me to answering all this too.

Ultimately, there's 4 groups and 12 teams (out of 20) that are qualified... if you are one of the top 4 / 5 teams and are in good form during the build up to the RWC, it's irrelevant who you get in the Pool you need to beat all teams to lift the Cup (unless you are the Springboks in 2019) If you are a Band 3 side and are worried about who you get to make it to Quarters, you know the chances are down to beating a Band 1 or Band 2 side, again, regardless who you get.

My biggest disagreement and what left me a bit jaded after reading your post is with your sudden rant against South America and especially attacking Argentina... IMPO there's no reason for it and your view is completely one-sided, even narrow minded, given that Argentina is probably one of the few T1s doing things in their region to help develop the sport. I don't know if you believe in everything you wrote or you are just attacking posters with the Argentinean flag.

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby Canalina » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 06:27

People are incredible. You just know to explain things with some sort of ugly behind-the-scene. “Why they host the draw three years before the kick-off? Well, of course I don’t want to think bad, I'm not certain, but, well, come on, couldn’t it be to favor some nations?...” and you are all satisfied because the thought that there’s some obscure plot is so exciting! The fact that 90% of the people is reasoning like you is the reason of the great success of the populists (we had recently one in rugby too, fortunately defeated in the elections): put a man on an high stand, let him tell the people that behind every fact there’s some sort of obscure plot by the “strong powers” and the people will be ready to follow him everywhere.
Why to see dirt in every thing? The draw made three years before is just a no-problem: it has some pro (I think to have listed some of them above) and some contra, and indeed WR has already said that from the next edition we will be back to a one-year-before draw; but, hey, the idea was from World Rugby, and if an idea is from World Rugby all the rugby fans in the world must immediately raise up in indignation. It’s like Pavlov’s dog: murmur to a rugby fan the words “World Rugby” and he will scream “it’s a joke!”.
The fact that in the forum search engine you may find 750 results for “joke” and 2 results for “awesome” is quite meaningful of the spirit of this forum and of the rugby web in general.
The attack to argentinian and south american rugby (on real basis, no one of the accusations is invented) was a last move to try to change the stereotypisized mind of this forum: if World Rugby doesn’t involve all the nations in the RWC qualifiers it’s a joke!, if South America does the same, well, who cares? If World Rugby offers a better path to the top nations it’s a joke! If South America does the same, well, who cares, not a problem. If an english player had written some racist public comments and RFU had pardoned him after a decisional U-turn, all the fans in the world would have orgasmicly erupted in a gigantic “oh, this is a joke!”. If the argentinian federation does the same, well, this is not a good episode, but he was so young, he is mature now, well, let’s forget all the matter and move on.
About “North America turned the back to Pichot”, well, I think you should really re-think your idea of free elections and democracy. I must be free to vote who I want, without fearing that you stop talking to me or that you break our collaboration. Having to repeat an obviousness like this is very disappointing. I could almost say that it’s a joke

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Re: 2023 Draw, Thoughts?

Postby carbonero » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 15:28

I think that having the draw now is dumb. It didn’t generate any buzz. Only moaning by fans. Do rugby fans moan about everything? Fuck yeah. However, we have reasons to be negative. Our administrators at an international, regional and local level don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. They need to explain their decisions. Again, every other sport has their draw one year before; France doesn’t need this like Japan did in 2019; Argentina, Fiji, Italy and Scotland didn’t get the chance to improve their position and WR was at least inconsistent when they decided to pospone the residency rule changes.

You don’t agree with Hernan? That’s fine. Tell him that he is exaggerating. That not every WR decision is as a dirty machination to favor big nations. Or don’t engage with him. Yet, you decided to take a dump on Argentina to change our "stereotypisized minds”. I read it as “Who are you to criticize WR you racist, violent and elitist assholes?”. That vortex of whataboutism won’t take us anywhere. And you would probably take it personal and leave the forum if we attacked Italian rugby just because we don’t agree with something you posted.

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