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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 07:24

Silver Fox wrote:I recall there was also talk of a German club from Niedersachsen joining the Dutch ranks two years ago,
That however did not happen. I don't know why. If it was the Dutch union who objected, was it just a romour or were they not up to it?


I think that you mean Sparta Werlte https://www.facebook.com/rugbysvspartawerlte/ if I got that right, they play as a part of Emmen in the Dutch 4th divison North-East, apparently there are even some gams played on German soil:

14:00 Rugby SV Sparta Werlte, 49757 Werlte, Duitsland RC Emmen 1 RC Groningen 3 22 - 26 ( https://www.erugby.nl/pub/nrb/2019-2020 ... /index.htm )

It is a small town with 17k inhabitants.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 20:43

Perhaps should go in the old curiosities thread instead ...

Reviewing old British newspapers at https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/, I was reading this one: https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19111116/177/0008, which if that link doesn't work is the Leicester Daily Post from 16 November 1911 about the local Leicestershire Rugby Union's 21st anniversary where they claim to be the first Union to take teams to France & Germany! I've never heard of it before, on further research it looks like the tour to Germany occurred in Easter 1910.

I can find reference to a match v Bremen & Hannover on good Friday 1910 (it references when the telegram arrives on the Saturday morning), which Leicestershire won 13-5. And a further report which says the other game was a nil all draw, and that "an extraordinary referee was met in the second match and if the game was still being played today we would not have scored under his command", but not who it was against!!

Anyone ever heard about this tour before?

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19100328/144/0007 Match at Bremen

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19100526/130/0008 vague report of the tour.

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Re: German rugby

Postby iul » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 20:56

sk 88 wrote:Perhaps should go in the old curiosities thread instead ...

Reviewing old British newspapers at https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/, I was reading this one: https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19111116/177/0008, which if that link doesn't work is the Leicester Daily Post from 16 November 1911 about the local Leicestershire Rugby Union's 21st anniversary where they claim to be the first Union to take teams to France & Germany! I've never heard of it before, on further research it looks like the tour to Germany occurred in Easter 1910.

I can find reference to a match v Bremen & Hannover on good Friday 1910 (it references when the telegram arrives on the Saturday morning), which Leicestershire won 13-5. And a further report which says the other game was a nil all draw, and that "an extraordinary referee was met in the second match and if the game was still being played today we would not have scored under his command", but not who it was against!!

Anyone ever heard about this tour before?

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19100328/144/0007 Match at Bremen

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002148/19100526/130/0008 vague report of the tour.

Awesome find. Links don't work though. Maybe upload the pics somewhere like twitter or facebook or whatever, where they don't delete them after a while and then insert them here

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 08:12

Good idea, will try that this evening.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 14:18

Leicester Daily Post, Thursday 16th November 1911
Image


Leicester Daily Post, Easter Saturday 26th March 1910
Image


Leicester Daily Post, Wednesday 30th March 1910
Image

I found the brief match report for the second game, it was against Hanover on their own.

I reckon a cheeky Bremen-Hamburg-Hanover tour would be pretty popular these days with lots of clubs!

Dates relate to newspapers not match dates.
Last edited by sk 88 on Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 19:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 14:47

Great find!

Tried to find anything about it, but apparently German newspapers did't report a lot of sports results at that time. Would be worth investigating, if that theory stands and when German newspapers really started to report sports.

Does "the match was very keen" mean, that the match was quite tough or enthusiastic? Not sure what the correct translation could be.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 19:35

RugbyLiebe wrote:Great find!

Tried to find anything about it, but apparently German newspapers did't report a lot of sports results at that time. Would be worth investigating, if that theory stands and when German newspapers really started to report sports.

Does "the match was very keen" mean, that the match was quite tough or enthusiastic? Not sure what the correct translation could be.


Means enthusiastic. I guess like a good nil all in football rather than a dull one!

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 19:03

Found who the second match was against. It was DSV Hannover 78, who I think are currently top of the Bundesliga Nord! I've found some references to the French tours around these times were they played Toulouse, Perigueux, Bergerac, Nantes and Grenoble (across several tours, not one great massive one!)

Leicester Mercury, Thursday 13th April 1939.
Image

With regards to the "camaraderie" of the nations remember the dates and how "the Germans were top fellas" was unlikely to go down well!

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 09:20

sk 88 wrote:With regards to the "camaraderie" of the nations remember the dates and how "the Germans were top fellas" was unlikely to go down well!


And I thought that you never blame the ref in our gentleman sport - apparently only with the honourable jolly-good exemption, when the ref is German :lol:
I am impressed though that the writer understands the feminine genus of the word Mannschaft and wrote correctly "englische Mannschaft". Probably because one of the members of the team seems to be German: Baum.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 12:35

Oh, I'm building up a little stock of newspaper reports of referees being attacked by fans around these sorts of times, not just where they are moaned about which is absolutely all the time. The hypocrisy in the sport around referees is ridiculous, they have been blamed for defeats from the word go while people try to claim otherwise for the moral high ground.

Prior to 1914 German names were very common in England, I believe in the 19th Century they were the biggest group of immigrants to the UK. In the same vein that "Holland", "Welsh", "Scotland", "French" are still very common surnames in the UK "German" was very common at this time too, but many Anglicised it to "Gorman" around this time due to nationalist ill feeling whipped up by the first world war. Of course, I should think most readers will know the most famous example as the Saxe-Coburg-Gothe's became the Windsors.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 15:05

sk 88 wrote:Prior to 1914 German names were very common in England, I believe in the 19th Century they were the biggest group of immigrants to the UK. In the same vein that "Holland", "Welsh", "Scotland", "French" are still very common surnames in the UK "German" was very common at this time too, but many Anglicised it to "Gorman" around this time due to nationalist ill feeling whipped up by the first world war. Of course, I should think most readers will know the most famous example as the Saxe-Coburg-Gothe's became the Windsors.


That's really interesting but also really strange, as next to no German would have probably described himself as German in that time. More likely his regional kingdom/principality. Were there names like Bavarian, Saxon, Prussian etc.?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 15:46

Or Hanovarian.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 16:01

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Prior to 1914 German names were very common in England, I believe in the 19th Century they were the biggest group of immigrants to the UK. In the same vein that "Holland", "Welsh", "Scotland", "French" are still very common surnames in the UK "German" was very common at this time too, but many Anglicised it to "Gorman" around this time due to nationalist ill feeling whipped up by the first world war. Of course, I should think most readers will know the most famous example as the Saxe-Coburg-Gothe's became the Windsors.


That's really interesting but also really strange, as next to no German would have probably described himself as German in that time. More likely his regional kingdom/principality. Were there names like Bavarian, Saxon, Prussian etc.?


Would be a catch all for anyone speaking German, including Austrians & German speakers from eastern Europe. Englishmen's total lack of interest or knowledge of anything past Dover is not particularly new.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Vultureblack » Sun, 26 Jul 2020, 18:32

[quote="RugbyLiebe"][quote="Silver Fox"]

ADRT - Ad hoc Convention of Rugby Germany

Did any occasional visitor of this thread attend that meaningful event on July 18, 2020 in Heusenstamm? Totalrugby.de covered the results. Deafening silence whether current issues of the federation were discussed at all. It abstained this time from offering a live ticker. Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung Heidelberg remained vague as well.

It was common wisdom in the build-up that the DRV would get its funding. Despite all the noise beforehand and the kerfuffle about Alexander Michl. So were the six hours just deliberations and voting about the size of the raise and its timing?

What about the criticism voiced beforehand? Were any of these points mentioned? (I suppose, I do not need to elaborate.)
Very often, the federation has got a story to tell about aspect that initially look odd to an outsider. Was this opportunity used?

Nobody even reported who represented the federation and spoke on its behalf (beyond president Hees, which is merely stating the obvious.)
Hearsay would also do, if reliable.

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Re: German rugby

Postby theDarky » Sun, 26 Jul 2020, 20:35

sk 88 wrote:Found who the second match was against. It was DSV Hannover 78, who I think are currently top of the Bundesliga Nord! I've found some references to the French tours around these times were they played Toulouse, Perigueux, Bergerac, Nantes and Grenoble (across several tours, not one great massive one!)

Leicester Mercury, Thursday 13th April 1939.
Image

With regards to the "camaraderie" of the nations remember the dates and how "the Germans were top fellas" was unlikely to go down well!


I invite you to discover this old newspaper (16th of october 1900) if you like this type of archives.

They talked about a football match between France and Germany ....but it was some rugby football ....

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... em.r=rugby

"L'auto" was the first version of what gonna become "L'equipe" ... they organized (they still btw) "Le tour de France" and later "la coupe des clubs champions européens" (later the uefa champions league)

A small article which gives an idea about how rugby was seen as "football" and not just "rugby"

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 06:16

theDarky wrote:I invite you to discover this old newspaper (16th of october 1900) if you like this type of archives.

They talked about a football match between France and Germany ....but it was some rugby football ....

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... em.r=rugby

"L'auto" was the first version of what gonna become "L'equipe" ... they organized (they still btw) "Le tour de France" and later "la coupe des clubs champions européens" (later the uefa champions league)

A small article which gives an idea about how rugby was seen as "football" and not just "rugby"


Great find. That's the Olympic 15s game from 1900.
What I really like is the base of the article (excuse my rusty school French). "And a lively evening followed between the French and German sides, where they fraternized until late at night. This will bring some fierce chauvinist to rethink their positions and shows that sport, like music, doesn't care about the player's fatherland."
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 09:29

Yes it is only between the two wars when the papers stop reporting the fixtures as "Football - Association", "Football - Rugby Union" and "Football - Northern Union" in the English papers.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Rumpelstilzchen » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 19:42

theDarky wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Found who the second match was against. It was DSV Hannover 78, who I think are currently top of the Bundesliga Nord! I've found some references to the French tours around these times were they played Toulouse, Perigueux, Bergerac, Nantes and Grenoble (across several tours, not one great massive one!)

Leicester Mercury, Thursday 13th April 1939.
Image

With regards to the "camaraderie" of the nations remember the dates and how "the Germans were top fellas" was unlikely to go down well!


I invite you to discover this old newspaper (16th of october 1900) if you like this type of archives.

They talked about a football match between France and Germany ....but it was some rugby football ....

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... em.r=rugby

"L'auto" was the first version of what gonna become "L'equipe" ... they organized (they still btw) "Le tour de France" and later "la coupe des clubs champions européens" (later the uefa champions league)

A small article which gives an idea about how rugby was seen as "football" and not just "rugby"

Yes, the German club, Fußballclub Frankfurt (nowadays known as SC Frankfurt 1880 and the reigning German champion) was a founding club of the DFB (German football association) and still a member during the Olympics. Because of this the DFB got gifted the Victoria Trophy, one of four trophys created after the Olympics, even though there was no football team present. This trophy was then supposed to be awarded to the German champions of rugby and football in alternating years. But in 1901 the rugby clubs left the DFB, so the trophy was awarded to the German football champion from 1903 to 1944.

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