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The future of Jaguares

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The future of Jaguares

Postby geuvanio22 » Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 04:30

Since speculations and ideas about the future of the Jaguares keep popping up in different topics I thought we could have a specific topic to discuss Jaguares related news/ideas.

Since the Jaguares left Super Rugby (and Jaguares XV the Currie Cup) much has been discussed about their future. As an important brand for argentine rugby, it seems important to keep it alive, but everyone seems to have a different idea about what should be done. I'll try to summarize some of the stuff I've read here.

SLAR
Some say UAR should focus on SLAR, but so far SLAR is turning out to be a very weak tournament even for Jaguares XV.
Maybe a 2nd argentine franchise (and even a 3rd) could raise up the competition level and keep the brand relevant, but this might be an expensive option that would still be working without the full Jaguares strength.

PRO16
Entering the PRO16 is an option that has been repeatedly speculated and different ways have been brought up, like entering as an expansion team (either based in Spain or even in Argentina) or as rebranded team that is already part of the PRO16. From the competitive point of view, it sounds like a good idea, but there are many issues when it comes to implementing this (specially euros).

Super Rugby
Well, one obvious idea is to find a way back to Super Rugby, which sounds unlikely, but we can always discuss alternatives. With the Fijian Drua and Moana Pasifika entering SR, I don't see a place for the Jaguares.

South Africa
Jaguares XV have played the Currie Cup First division before, and won without much difficulty; so what good arrangement could be made? With 4 South African franchises in PRO16, is there a good competition for the main Jaguares or is it the case for the Jaguares XV?

MLR
Why not? It's a good, expansive market, with good transmissions and an almost perfect time zone for commercial reasons. The level of play is not that great, but it's promising.

Some of the ideas are not mutually exclusive, since some might involve the main Jaguares squad and others the Jaguares XV, some combinations might even allow for 3 competitions to be considered (eg. full Jaguares playing PRO16, Jaguares XV playing SLAR during the first half of the year and the Currie Cup during the second).
When considering distance, time zones and the possibility of always playing as the away team, remember that they already faced hard logistics when playing Super Rugby and Currie Cup (yes, it was hard and also part of the reason they don't play these competitions any longer, but they managed to do it already).

What are your thoughts on this?

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 06:29

geuvanio22 wrote:Since speculations and ideas about the future of the Jaguares keep popping up in different topics I thought we could have a specific topic to discuss Jaguares related news/ideas.

Since the Jaguares left Super Rugby (and Jaguares XV the Currie Cup) much has been discussed about their future. As an important brand for argentine rugby, it seems important to keep it alive, but everyone seems to have a different idea about what should be done. I'll try to summarize some of the stuff I've read here.

SLAR
Some say UAR should focus on SLAR, but so far SLAR is turning out to be a very weak tournament even for Jaguares XV.
Maybe a 2nd argentine franchise (and even a 3rd) could raise up the competition level and keep the brand relevant, but this might be an expensive option that would still be working without the full Jaguares strength.

PRO16
Entering the PRO16 is an option that has been repeatedly speculated and different ways have been brought up, like entering as an expansion team (either based in Spain or even in Argentina) or as rebranded team that is already part of the PRO16. From the competitive point of view, it sounds like a good idea, but there are many issues when it comes to implementing this (specially euros).

Super Rugby
Well, one obvious idea is to find a way back to Super Rugby, which sounds unlikely, but we can always discuss alternatives. With the Fijian Drua and Moana Pasifika entering SR, I don't see a place for the Jaguares.

South Africa
Jaguares XV have played the Currie Cup First division before, and won without much difficulty; so what good arrangement could be made? With 4 South African franchises in PRO16, is there a good competition for the main Jaguares or is it the case for the Jaguares XV?

MLR
Why not? It's a good, expansive market, with good transmissions and an almost perfect time zone for commercial reasons. The level of play is not that great, but it's promising.

Some of the ideas are not mutually exclusive, since some might involve the main Jaguares squad and others the Jaguares XV, some combinations might even allow for 3 competitions to be considered (eg. full Jaguares playing PRO16, Jaguares XV playing SLAR during the first half of the year and the Currie Cup during the second).
When considering distance, time zones and the possibility of always playing as the away team, remember that they already faced hard logistics when playing Super Rugby and Currie Cup (yes, it was hard and also part of the reason they don't play these competitions any longer, but they managed to do it already).

What are your thoughts on this?


Personally, the UAR should be looking at developing the SLAR. Pro16 may be an option but there seems to be the idea of playing in Spain as opposed to out of BA. They should make the Jaguares the BA side and look to get two more teams based out of Corboba and Tucuman. MLR isn't an option. I don't see their business model supporting a team that far removed in terms of travel. May be in the future. Perhaps a Jaguares and a combined Sth America squad out of Montevideo might be compelling enough for them. Perhaps a Sth America conference might be an option which kind of ties into the whole build the SLAR side of it. Super Rugby isn't an option. Aus and NZ have decisively shifted their focus to the Pacific. They'll have their TT competition and will look to forming something with Japan in the form of a Cup competition.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby RugbyToledo » Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 11:02

Jaguares entered Super Rugby and Trinations thanks to South Africa (basically because UAR jumped apartheid international boycott and played against the Springbooks in the 80's as Sudamerica XV), Australia and NZ never cared of them. With South Africa out of Super Rugby, this way is dead. One more time, South Africa could push the european federations to let Jaguares enter. There are no more many options.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby ScottishPuma » Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 12:31

In all honesty, I think for the short term future they should focus on SLAR and improving the level of competition. Subject to the existing issues highlighted with the UAR, Argentina really should push for two or three franchises in an expanded competition.

It doesn't work to have them in Europe playing in the Pro 16 in Spain or Italy or wherever, I just don't think it's a viable situation long-term, and without true 'home' fixtures the real supporters who matter in Argentina will struggle to retain emotional investment in the brand - it's vital for their continuation that the Argentinian public are still able to attend matches (once crowds are safely permitted to return, naturally).

As others have noted, Super Rugby has splintered and without the South Africans, there will be no place for the Jaguares. One point though, I thought the Pro 14 Rainbow Cup was for this season only - what are the indications it will continue beyond this post-Covid?

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby geuvanio22 » Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 16:45

The problem with SLAR is that a single strong team (Jaguares XV) is not enough to raise the competition level. Peñarol and a 2nd Uruguay franchise could help, but the competition level is decades behind what Super Rugby was for the Jaguares. A 2nd argentine franchise might be a problem if you think about it commercially, not only the UAR might not have enough funds to make this viable, but even a privately owned franchise (like Ceibos was supposed to be) could be counterproductive, since you risk dividing popularity with a 2nd team, or even making the 2nd unsustainable in the short term, since the Jaguares already have an established brand that concentrates all fans consumption. So how could UAR and the Jaguares improve SLAR and make it attractive commercially and competitive-wise?

ScottishPuma wrote:One point though, I thought the Pro 14 Rainbow Cup was for this season only - what are the indications it will continue beyond this post-Covid?


From what I understood, Rainbow Cup will be a shorter tournament with all PRO16 teams starting in April (3 derbies and 3 matches against teams from other countries, considering Scotland and Italy as derbies, 6 matches total, with the top 2 teams playing the final) and a proper, longer tournament, will start in the second half of the year.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby Rebus » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 05:38

UAR would able to afford a team playing overseas in the Pro league permanently until the SLAR raised its standards , this would take the best part of a generation and unless there is a generous benefactor , cannot see this happening.
Likelihood it will go back to the 90's where the top players went to Europe or now Japan to ply their trade and joined the national team when selected. The SLAR will have to develop at its own pace , with the probability of Argentinians playing for other SLAR teams as well as the SLAR version of the Jaguares. Cant see a team joining the MLr as it would be too much of a stretch for the travel costs , but could see the introduction of an Americas Champions Cup at the end of the respective SLAR / MLR competition which would only hekp in a small way

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby Thomas » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 13:09

This conversation about UAR, SLAR and Jaguares etc.. keeps going around the roundabout and will continue to do so until the UAR and its proxies are reformed. They cannot keep going cap in hand to all leagues around the globe looking for place.

They need to sort themselves and their house. In my opinion SLAR is in an embryonic stage and early indications shows that it could be great league and a template for others if they take the time and effort to invest in the venture and do it properly.

One of the problems for UAR and Jaguares is that they have to define what it is to be professional and/or professional organisation, what leagues they consider professional or should be professional.

They need to start somewhere and have a blueprint which I don’t see at present.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 16:40

Yes, SLAR with 2+ Argentine teams, making the title dispute exciting and building rivalries is the way. Córdoba and Tucumán Unions complain about the end of the Campeonato Argentino, for exemple. The problems to make it happen are the same as always: money and clubs vs unions issues.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby STMKY » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 17:08

You forgot the Russia option. Although it is less likely for Jaguares than for Cheetahs, Pumas and Griquas. But still.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 17:10

:lol:

For sure :roll:

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby STMKY » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 17:13

The difference in mentality. I'm not running to complain about the "Brazilian science fiction writer" to be banned. I just read. Any options are possible.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 17:28

I'm not running against you for science fiction prize. Be cool. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for anything (anything) you say becoming real. So far, zero. But I'm pretty sure in rugby "any options are possible". Let's wait for the Madagascar Siberian team beating the All Blacks in a Russian-African-Asia-Oceania-South American transcontinental super league.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby STMKY » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 18:10

You still don't get it. I tried to gently hint to you that snitching is a shame. In Russia. In Brazil, as I understand it, this is the norm.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 18:23

Snitching what? I warned you to be honest and publish things as personal opinion, not as misinformation. There is no such thing as "In Russia", "In Brazil". In all the world news and opinion are different things. You mix both all the time and I reported you after warning several times. Just try to be an honest person and say "in my opinion, they should do this". Not that "oh, it is inside information". Grow up.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 20:01

It looks like Jaguares XV are indeed planning to play the Currie Cup (the 2nd division) in 2021 after SLAR: https://www.aplenorugby.com.ar/site/ame ... -argentina

They say they would need to figure out how Argentina would take part in the South American Champioship but, honestly, it is irrelevant. Argentina XV doesn't play for the RWC Qualy, so it is pointless. It is better to play the Currie Cup.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby geuvanio22 » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 21:05

victorsra wrote:It looks like Jaguares XV are indeed planning to play the Currie Cup (the 2nd division) in 2021 after SLAR: https://www.aplenorugby.com.ar/site/ame ... -argentina

They say they would need to figure out how Argentina would take part in the South American Champioship but, honestly, it is irrelevant. Argentina XV doesn't play for the RWC Qualy, so it is pointless. It is better to play the Currie Cup.



Well, as I said above, some tournament choices aren't mutually exclusive. SLAR and Currie Cup will help to fill up the Jaguares XV calendar, but they are way above every opponent.

If the main squad doesn't find a good competition will it mean that Jaguares XV will actually become the main Jaguares? Will UAR settle with most of the Pumas being spread all over the world? I mean, it was quite an effort to make a professional squad filled with Pumas and now they are all playing abroad... Is it OK for the UAR to have their main (and now only) pro team being "just" an Argentina XV squad? I'm not saying they should pursue bringing the Super Rugby squad back together, but Pampas XV didn't have that much appeal when it was the only pro squad and they didn't last long. I'll insist that an argentine pro team should necessarily be involved in a competitive tournament, otherwise it's pointless and it makes their own brand and the competition they are in unattractive. If they keep playing SLAR and a South African competition they should push for a big expansion in SLAR (a 2nd Uruguay franchise AND argentine provincial sides, like Buenos Aires, Tucumán and Córdoba) and a better South African competition (come on, it's a joke for them to play the 2nd division of the Currie Cup after having smashed every team faced without any home games).

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby STMKY » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 08:41

This is an excuse for snitching. We don't do that in Russia. We argue arguments with any opinion. If the opinions are different, then everyone remains at their own opinion. But complaining and snitching is a very bad thing with us. Therefore, it looks very wild to us.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby Raven » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 14:37

victorsra wrote:It looks like Jaguares XV are indeed planning to play the Currie Cup (the 2nd division) in 2021 after SLAR: https://www.aplenorugby.com.ar/site/ame ... -argentina

They say they would need to figure out how Argentina would take part in the South American Champioship but, honestly, it is irrelevant. Argentina XV doesn't play for the RWC Qualy, so it is pointless. It is better to play the Currie Cup.


I don't know if I understand the article correctly, or if it matches what it had been said a few months back, UAR wanted a team in the Premier Division, and allegedly that was going to happen as well as a Georgian XV side in the First Div. Jaguares XV could play in the Currie Cup and Argentina could still field a XV side to play in the South American Championship, they had 43 guys in Australia while the Sudamericano was being played in Uruguay. They certainly have enough talent spread in the other SLAR franchises, and in local academies to build a good enough team. I'm sure that what they mean is whether they can afford having and "paying" 2 squads at the same time?

geuvanio22 wrote:Well, as I said above, some tournament choices aren't mutually exclusive. SLAR and Currie Cup will help to fill up the Jaguares XV calendar, but they are way above every opponent.

Spoiler:
If the main squad doesn't find a good competition will it mean that Jaguares XV will actually become the main Jaguares? Will UAR settle with most of the Pumas being spread all over the world? I mean, it was quite an effort to make a professional squad filled with Pumas and now they are all playing abroad... Is it OK for the UAR to have their main (and now only) pro team being "just" an Argentina XV squad? I'm not saying they should pursue bringing the Super Rugby squad back together, but Pampas XV didn't have that much appeal when it was the only pro squad and they didn't last long. I'll insist that an argentine pro team should necessarily be involved in a competitive tournament, otherwise it's pointless and it makes their own brand and the competition they are in unattractive. If they keep playing SLAR and a South African competition they should push for a big expansion in SLAR (a 2nd Uruguay franchise AND argentine provincial sides, like Buenos Aires, Tucumán and Córdoba) and a better South African competition (come on, it's a joke for them to play the 2nd division of the Currie Cup after having smashed every team faced without any home games).


Some questions will remain unanswered (the situation with COVIDs mutations in South Africa doesn't seem to be the best right now either)
The Jaguares as we knew them are gone and unlikely that we see them back. If a Jaguares team joins the Currie Cup, on any division, they probably will be called "Jaguares" losing the XV but won't be the entire National Team as we saw before, perhaps the SLAR franchise will still keep the "XV" in the name, who knows?, is it important? I don't think so. One thing is certain, UAR needs to keep their young talent within their radar, see them play, try them on their professional environment, cap them (capture them) and then if they get a chance to play abroad with the current economy, they won't afford to lure them with money - every player is entitled to leave though, it is up to them to keep excelling to be called for the Pumas.
However, the pandemic gave the exodus a bit of a make-up cause 'important players' had started to leave the Jaguares once the "ban" from the National team had been lifted for overseas players. Sanchez (in 2018), Matera, Lavanini had signed with teams from abroad after the 2019 season... Petti and Boffelli, amongst others had started to get important offers. It was a matter of time that more European teams came for big names, probably the change of names wasn't going to be as abrumpt as it ended up being but the Jaguares = Pumas was an equation we were not going to see for that long.
If I recall correctly, Pampas XV had a lot of appeal and after lifting silverware in South Africa a few of them went on to play at the RWC in 2011, so certainly served its purpose. Pampas lost their "Oomph" when they stopped playing the Vodacom and started touring against Pacific A teams and other Australian B sides, nobody knew when or what they were playing.

It is a very difficult scenario. Pumas will consist mainly of players playing abroad, with some exceptions that will probably come from Jaguares XV. I doubt we get to see a player from Cafeteros or Olimpia being called up for the Pumas, but hopefully I'm wrong and that also lifts the profile of the league.

I agree and have said on several occasions that SLAR NEEDS another UAR / Argentine team, but once travel restrictions are lifted in South America and costs of having 2 sides are again at full, with the level of commitment UAR has currently towards the league, I don't think it'll be that easy.

There's been comments of Chile wanting a second side, Uruguay had stated an interest before, but whether it's still the case or not I have no clue. This may also hold the key to Jaguares future, the League lifting its profile on its own 2 feet as well. Selknam being able to bring Tongans, Fijians with RWC experience, Namibians and South Africans in Olimpia, etc. It will be hard for it to compete with any European League budget, but if it reaches a more than acceptable level it will be interesting enough to invest more there instead of knocking on any door abroad.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 14:44

STMKY wrote:This is an excuse for snitching. We don't do that in Russia. We argue arguments with any opinion. If the opinions are different, then everyone remains at their own opinion. But complaining and snitching is a very bad thing with us. Therefore, it looks very wild to us.


You are ridiculously dishonest. Don't pretend to be inocent. You never said you were offering your opinion. You were always trying to say you have true inside information. I warned you many times, asked you to be honest and make it clear what is solid info and what is just your opinion. Don't play this silly "where I come from" card, nobody is idiot to believe you. It is false. Doesn't matter the country you come from. This is not "snitching" in any country. Only if you live in a paralel universe.

And I'll do it again if you keep being dishonest. When you post, make it clear if it is opinion or news (and if it is news, post the source, for everybody know it is not your crazy mind trying to fool people). This conversation ends here, the solution is up to you becoming honest.
Last edited by victorsra on Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 14:54, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby victorsra » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 14:52

Raven wrote:
victorsra wrote:It looks like Jaguares XV are indeed planning to play the Currie Cup (the 2nd division) in 2021 after SLAR: https://www.aplenorugby.com.ar/site/ame ... -argentina

They say they would need to figure out how Argentina would take part in the South American Champioship but, honestly, it is irrelevant. Argentina XV doesn't play for the RWC Qualy, so it is pointless. It is better to play the Currie Cup.


I don't know if I understand the article correctly, or if it matches what it had been said a few months back, UAR wanted a team in the Premier Division, and allegedly that was going to happen as well as a Georgian XV side in the First Div. Jaguares XV could play in the Currie Cup and Argentina could still field a XV side to play in the South American Championship, they had 43 guys in Australia while the Sudamericano was being played in Uruguay. They certainly have enough talent spread in the other SLAR franchises, and in local academies to build a good enough team. I'm sure that what they mean is whether they can afford having and "paying" 2 squads at the same time?

geuvanio22 wrote:Well, as I said above, some tournament choices aren't mutually exclusive. SLAR and Currie Cup will help to fill up the Jaguares XV calendar, but they are way above every opponent.

Spoiler:
If the main squad doesn't find a good competition will it mean that Jaguares XV will actually become the main Jaguares? Will UAR settle with most of the Pumas being spread all over the world? I mean, it was quite an effort to make a professional squad filled with Pumas and now they are all playing abroad... Is it OK for the UAR to have their main (and now only) pro team being "just" an Argentina XV squad? I'm not saying they should pursue bringing the Super Rugby squad back together, but Pampas XV didn't have that much appeal when it was the only pro squad and they didn't last long. I'll insist that an argentine pro team should necessarily be involved in a competitive tournament, otherwise it's pointless and it makes their own brand and the competition they are in unattractive. If they keep playing SLAR and a South African competition they should push for a big expansion in SLAR (a 2nd Uruguay franchise AND argentine provincial sides, like Buenos Aires, Tucumán and Córdoba) and a better South African competition (come on, it's a joke for them to play the 2nd division of the Currie Cup after having smashed every team faced without any home games).


Some questions will remain unanswered (the situation with COVIDs mutations in South Africa doesn't seem to be the best right now either)
The Jaguares as we knew them are gone and unlikely that we see them back. If a Jaguares team joins the Currie Cup, on any division, they probably will be called "Jaguares" losing the XV but won't be the entire National Team as we saw before, perhaps the SLAR franchise will still keep the "XV" in the name, who knows?, is it important? I don't think so. One thing is certain, UAR needs to keep their young talent within their radar, see them play, try them on their professional environment, cap them (capture them) and then if they get a chance to play abroad with the current economy, they won't afford to lure them with money - every player is entitled to leave though, it is up to them to keep excelling to be called for the Pumas.
However, the pandemic gave the exodus a bit of a make-up cause 'important players' had started to leave the Jaguares once the "ban" from the National team had been lifted for overseas players. Sanchez (in 2018), Matera, Lavanini had signed with teams from abroad after the 2019 season... Petti and Boffelli, amongst others had started to get important offers. It was a matter of time that more European teams came for big names, probably the change of names wasn't going to be as abrumpt as it ended up being but the Jaguares = Pumas was an equation we were not going to see for that long.
If I recall correctly, Pampas XV had a lot of appeal and after lifting silverware in South Africa a few of them went on to play at the RWC in 2011, so certainly served its purpose. Pampas lost their "Oomph" when they stopped playing the Vodacom and started touring against Pacific A teams and other Australian B sides, nobody knew when or what they were playing.

It is a very difficult scenario. Pumas will consist mainly of players playing abroad, with some exceptions that will probably come from Jaguares XV. I doubt we get to see a player from Cafeteros or Olimpia being called up for the Pumas, but hopefully I'm wrong and that also lifts the profile of the league.

I agree and have said on several occasions that SLAR NEEDS another UAR / Argentine team, but once travel restrictions are lifted in South America and costs of having 2 sides are again at full, with the level of commitment UAR has currently towards the league, I don't think it'll be that easy.

There's been comments of Chile wanting a second side, Uruguay had stated an interest before, but whether it's still the case or not I have no clue. This may also hold the key to Jaguares future, the League lifting its profile on its own 2 feet as well. Selknam being able to bring Tongans, Fijians with RWC experience, Namibians and South Africans in Olimpia, etc. It will be hard for it to compete with any European League budget, but if it reaches a more than acceptable level it will be interesting enough to invest more there instead of knocking on any door abroad.


Yes, as I understand the Currie Cup isn't a solution for the "Jaguares" brand as it would be Jaguares XV too. It is not clear what they are trying for the full "Jaguares" brand. I guess it is still the PRO16. I haven't seen any other idea being suggested.

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Re: The future of Jaguares

Postby NaBUru38 » Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 01:44

The only way that the Jaguares can be re-formed is if they are invited to the Super Rugby Trans-Tasman or the ProXV Rainbow Cup.

The first option is impossible because the ARU and NZRU don't want them.

And the second would require to settle in Spain or something. I won't say it's impossible, but we know it's no piece of cake.

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