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OLD STUFF - rarities

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 17:21

A nice article about the birth of the USSR national team (just in 1974!), with an awesome opening photo
https://rugger.info/news/36112

Six teams participating in that tournament: Romania's Grivica Rosie, Warsaw Skra, Nada Split, a sort of Czechoslovak national team, the USSR clubs select, the Moscow select.
In that first core of a national team there were not georgian players and there were a lot of Leningrad players.
According to Rugbyinternational.net USSR played the first test match three weeks after that tournament, defeating Czechoslovakia 28-0 in Leningrad on August 31, 1974

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 10:17

SHOULE BE

1) Griviţa Roşie
2) Prague selection

3) SOV test # 1
1975 01/09 Leningrad CZE W 28-0
ie NEXT year, similar tournament

*) 1974 SOV League standings

Fili Moscow 22 11-3 189:115
KIIGA Kiev 20 10-4 215:133
VVA Monino 19 9-4*1 150: 81
Burevestnik Leningrad 14 7-7 160:140
Avtomobilist Moscow 13 6-7*1 110:118
Lokomotiv Moscow 11 5-8*1 127:144
Gantiadi Tbilisi 7 3-10*1 82:207
Lokomotivi Tbilisi 6 3-11 97:192

Georgians vied between them for survival

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 10:51

ODDLY ENOUGH | Eton's elite ''Wall Game''
Posted September 23, 2020

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/eto ... d719560254

It was first established in 1766, it's played every year on St Andrew’s Day,
and Prince Harry dabbled in it back in 2003.
So what exactly is Eton College's famous Wall Game?

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SOME'HOW ONE COULD SNATCH | DOWNLOAD THIS ?

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 05 Jan 2021, 09:23

ANOTHER TRAGIC NEWS IN THESE HARD TIMES

TO APPEASE IGNORANT BOSSES WHO THINK
SMARTPHONE IS END'POINT OF COMMUNICATION

STATS'GURU >>
http://stats.scrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html
HAS BEEN DEMOLISHED

ANY CLICK (IN)DIRECTLY LEADS TO THIS NEW RUBBISH
https://www.espn.com/rugby/

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 05 Jan 2021, 12:34

Yes, you have to use google to find stats now...

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 05 Jan 2021, 12:42

FABRIZIO's site helps a lot >> http://www.rugbyarchive.net/

ANOTHER source still ALIVE >>
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/series/index.html

but in some cases it is inter-locked with broken STATS'GURU

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 08 Jan 2021, 15:05

Another QUALITY RUGBY NEWS RESOURCE GONE

From today
that >> https://uk.reuters.com/news/archive/rugbyNews
has been replaced with this rubbish >>
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 08:56

RUGBY contents of REUTERS still available via site search >>

https://www.reuters.com/search/news?blo ... e=pastWeek

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 02 Feb 2021, 11:35

Rugby ball from 80s with autographs. Probably it is either VVA Monino or USSR team. Most likely VVA.
I only identified one autograph. ?15 Vladimir Bobrov

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 02 Feb 2021, 12:36

#9 probably ФРАНЦУЗОВ

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 03 Feb 2021, 07:37

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:#9 probably ФРАНЦУЗОВ

Yes, this is it. I think that this is VVA, not USSR.
Not a single Georgian autograph)) 8-)
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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 17:45

The World Rugby Museum on the origin of rugby (the article is from 2017 but they revamped it today)
Finally not the usual "it's all false, it's all a myth!" but something more possibilist

... If this were true then maybe the likes of William Webb Ellis and Jem Mackie really did originate the game of rugby, not through a single act of miscreant innovation, but by bending the practice of Rugby’s football from one code of practice to another

https://worldrugbymuseum.blog/2017/10/3 ... rspective/

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 18:22

Canalina wrote:The World Rugby Museum on the origin of rugby (the article is from 2017 but they revamped it today)
Finally not the usual "it's all false, it's all a myth!" but something more possibilist

... If this were true then maybe the likes of William Webb Ellis and Jem Mackie really did originate the game of rugby, not through a single act of miscreant innovation, but by bending the practice of Rugby’s football from one code of practice to another

https://worldrugbymuseum.blog/2017/10/3 ... rspective/


Have you read the whole article? Because it is in accord with what good historians say, including Tony Collins, that you should read or listen to his podcast.

They are discussing how schoolboys (like Webb Ellis) changed the way they played football in the school, that possibly led to the rules of 1845. Anyway, you should understand the difference between games with oral rules, changeable, and sports, that are pretty much the institucionalization of the games, when the rules become written. Therefore, 1845 is the more accurate date for when rugby was founded as a "sport", based on oral traditions from Webb Ellis times.

Nobody serious ever said "it is all false!", but only that it is more complex than a boy running with a ball becoming the "inventor". This sort of history is outdated. That's what this World Rugby Museum article in fact shows. What realy matters as the origin of the sport is the whole process of schoolboys games becoming sports with written rules and institutions.

To show how complex is this, the article says:

More troubling there was a clear consensus amongst respondents that running with the ball remained illegal throughout the 1820s and much of the 1830s, before being legislated for, initially in 1841, and then again when the first written rules to the game were at last compiled by children of the school in 1845.

[...]

To gain a clearer understanding of what was taking place it is necessary to reassess what was written in the original letters that comprised the ORS study (1895-97). There is an almost unanimous consensus that carrying the ball was illegal in the 1820s and remained so throughout the 1830s. Despite this many correspondents recall that it happened with regularity.


[...]

With this remark we hear described the transition- from an act of law enforcement to a recognised passage of play- that must have occurred at some point prior to 1841. By the early 1840s it is to be assumed that running with the ball in hand, whilst opposing players attempted to tackle you, was a recognised feature of the game- and not mere rule breaking as it had been in earlier years.


I think it makes an important point about 1823 vs 1845...

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 19:15

victorsra wrote: Nobody serious ever said "it is all false!"

I must remember bad because I recall a lot of persons not conceding even that there was a chance the W.Webb Ellis episode was true and that it could have influenced, at least slightly, the game. According to them it was impossible that in 1823 someone could run with the ball

victorsra wrote:
More troubling there was a clear consensus amongst respondents that running with the ball remained illegal throughout the 1820s and much of the 1830s, before being legislated for, initially in 1841, and then again when the first written rules to the game were at last compiled by children of the school in 1845.

[...]

To gain a clearer understanding of what was taking place it is necessary to reassess what was written in the original letters that comprised the ORS study (1895-97). There is an almost unanimous consensus that carrying the ball was illegal in the 1820s and remained so throughout the 1830s. Despite this many correspondents recall that it happened with regularity.


[...]

With this remark we hear described the transition- from an act of law enforcement to a recognised passage of play- that must have occurred at some point prior to 1841. By the early 1840s it is to be assumed that running with the ball in hand, whilst opposing players attempted to tackle you, was a recognised feature of the game- and not mere rule breaking as it had been in earlier years.


I think it makes an important point about 1823 vs 1845...

"Despite this many correspondets recall that it happened with regularity". The same persons that testified that carrying the ball was not permitted until mid '30s said that, despite that, it happened. This, together with the fact that Bloxam had apparently no reasons to lie and to mention that particular boy, makes thinking that the Webb Ellis episode could be true and that it could have had a part in the birth of rugby. How much great was that part, we will probably never know

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 19:59

Yes, it happened because we are talking about oral rules. Foul play and casual changes always happen, depending on the kids moods. Like any schoolboys' game for fun. School kids constantly changed what they played, being Webb Ellis one of them (maybe the most important one? maybe, but that's not what realy matters). The text shows others did the same afterwards.

The consolidation is with the rules being written, 1845. If you want a birth certificate, that's the written rules. But the written rules were wtritten not randomly, they were based on what they were used to play. Did they knew Webb Ellis? Most Historians show that probably they didn't. But, that doesn't realy matter.

Rugby Football's birth is a process, not a day to night invention. That's the whole point. It wasn't that one day a boy had the light and created something out of a genious play and everybody followed him since it, as people like to think. It took like 2 decades for people to agree that running with the ball was the key concept that should dictate how Rugby Football was to be played.

About Bloxam, he had no reason to lie. But in his time people liked to think History as a succession of great men doing great things and founding fathers were almost a necessary idea. They wanted to found the genious of the creation moment and ignored the whole process. That's how they saw History. It changed in the 20th century a lot and the notions of long processes, contexts, social forces and etc were better developed. The role of individuals is not ignored, there is now what is called "microhistory", but it is put in context to better understand the real meaning of the actions, as this article indeed shows. Bloxam wasn't a lier, just a man of his time.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 20:36

I think we can make a better difference in this way:

- Kids played football games mixing rules they invented with rules older kids told them. The rules were passed from older to younger kids just oraly. One tells the other how to play. Some kids often disliked the rules and broke them. Why not? It is funny, it is not written anywhere it must be one way. One kid in the 1820s and became famous among the other kids of his time for trying something cool;

- Some kids thought that what Ellis did was cool, but the majority of the kids didn't. Ellis left school, but the idea of doing different of what your peers tell you to do keeps being cool. Older kids tell stories to younger kids. Others did the same thing as Ellis, like Mackie . Then others did the same as Mackie and so on for 2 decades;

- What proves nobody tryed the same thing as Ellis before him? Or that he himself heard previous stories about cool ideas? Nothing. It is lost. He was only the oldest memory Bloxam found. Because when Bloxam searched for it, Ellis' story wasn't being told in ther school anymore... ;

- Did the boys of 1840s knew the boys of the 1820s? Hardly, why they would? That's why Ellis' name disappeared. It is normal;

- In 1845 the kids decided to write the rules, because it would make it easier to always play the same game, with the same rules, and avoid disputes. Those 1845 kids were playing the game how Ellis wanted? Not exactly. 20 years passed and the game evolved, with past ideas being rejected and adopted many times, broken and followed... ;

- Finaly, the kids of the 1850s, 1860s played according to how the 1845 kids liked, because, it was written. Or, more or less this, because the rules were re-written sometimes too (in 1847, in 1862, http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/laws.htm finaly, In 1871, RFU wrote the first rules that weren't written by students), but always based on the previous written rules. They haven't re-invented anything, just improved;

Well, then, who invented the game? Not a single person. But what prevailed was the Rugby Football according to the 1845 kids. And the 1845 kids played a product that had Ellis, Mackie , and others past influences.

The whole problem here is that RFU and IRB (World Rugby) made the Ellis story official, so they need to defend and focus on that story. But it is indeed not realy relevant, as what matters is the process.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 21:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 21:07

Agree with that. I just think it's not right to pass from an unfounded certainty ("Ellis invented rugby") to the opposite one ("the Ellis' story was just a myth"), so I like balanced articles like the one from Museum of Rugby. Despite all the doubts and the weaknesses (Bloxam himself, if I'm not wrong, said something like "if and how much this influenced the creation of the game I can't say") the Ellis episode is the most ancient detailed testify we have about the dawn of the proper game, so it's a precious one

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Feb 2021, 21:28

Sure, but that's why 1845 can be considered the proper foundation date (if that is so necessary) of Rugby Football as a sport, originated from the football games previously played at the Rugby School. In the other hand, 1823 (Webb Ellis) is the oldest memory of the feature (running with the ball) considered the most important of the future Rugby Football. Thus, it is not right to say Webb Ellis "invented rugby". But evidence suggests he might have been an important influence for the development of the game in process that lead to the 1845 rules.

Anyway, "myths" are "real" if they have influence. If for more than a century people took him as a founding father, he is important as an influence in the rugby's culture, no matter how true it is. But now it is time for a more solid idea (of the whole process of rugby's development) to spread, making it clear for people that sports are in constant change since the origins.

I think the biggest problem about Webb Ellis is that many people believe he was playing Association Football, which is definitly a huge mistake.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 19 Feb 2021, 08:16

Thanx to both for reviving discussion

Kudos to Victor for some finest points

eg * Rugby Football's birth is process, not day to night invention ** Bloxam wasn't liar, just man of his time *** Whole problem here is that RFU and iRB (World Rugby) made Ellis story official, so they need to defend and focus on that story **** I think biggest problem about Webb Ellis is that many people believe he was playing Association (sic) Football, which is definitely huge mistake

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 21 Feb 2021, 13:11

Image

Soon it will be 30 years since break-up of SOV

Enjoy FULL cumulative standings for its 25+3 seasons [1963-91]
http://Qaflan.net/$/RG_MRUDEBY.htm

I assume Cyrillic is quite readable for who knows Latin alphabet
Otherwise use auto translation, eg google
Ready to answer ANY rugby-related queries any time

Posted to show 'WHO was WHO' over almost three decades
as had been reading volumes of false speculation about
several minor teams' strengths in SOV era -- at this very Forum

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Similar file for SOV Handball >> http://Qaflan.net/$/HB_MRUDEBI.htm
albeit covering ONLY top flight as I had no data about lower divisions

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby vino_93 » Sun, 21 Feb 2021, 16:58

Very interesting, thanks ! :thumbup:

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