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Sevens World Series/7's News

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 16:05

From 2020-21 season to at least 2030-31 the Olympics won't interfere in the Sevens Series as France (2024) and USA (2028) will probably stay in top division.

This means we'll go back to the normal situation of many nations from all continents playing the series as invited teams.

This will make the Challenger Series much better. If it is able to expand, I see some interesting oportunities. For exemple Singapore could host a leg together with the main series, offering its own national team a place in the event.

We could see succesful tournament like Rome and Munich becoming part of it too.

There are many possibilities being open with this.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 16:58

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Teams are not exactly invited. They qualified through continental competitions.

Europe qualified 3, South America 2 (but Uruguay as a host earned 1 core spot, hence the 13 odd number of core teams), Asia 2, Africa 2, Oceania 2 and North America 1. The only invited teams are Mexico, Paraguay and Colombia because, yes, they are closer.

I think this is a great move from World Rugby, but obviously they needed at least one more 16-teams tournament outside South America to make it a real series. But this is the kickoff season, so that's fine. What I question is what Sudamerica Rugby will do now, what will be the South American Sevens Series?

And what will be the qualification for 2021?


They can not be qualified for it, as it wasn't clear when they played the respective tournaments for it. Actually they qualified for the HK Qualifier, which now 4 teams won't be a part of. If you change the rules later, you invite somebody. But I agree that's splitting hairs.

My problem with this is not the Series itself (that's a good idea), but that it is once again only a fig leaf. What they've changed for now is that they need to host 4 less teams in HK, while taking 6 non-cartel-nation-teams their chance to play tournaments on the World Series without even announcing it.

And this they can only announce two month before it starts, without even answering some simply questions like who from South America will qualify for 2021? What a joke World Rugby is.

Edit: I like the proposal of 12 core teams and 4 new teams (or make it 10 core and 6 teams from every region, so every region is always present).


The announcement of the new Challenge Series taking place in February was made during the first week of October and the unions have known about it since July.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 17:14

The next Olympic problem will possibly be 2032. Two of the most likely bids come from Jakarta (Indonesia) and Mumbai (India). But Madrid can bid too and Spain os at least now a core team as well.

About GB, I really hope Wales or Scotland are relegated and England has a dificult season for the British realise it is better to play sevens as GB and have the home nations teams only for the Commonwealth Games. They should spend that money in PRO14, period.
Last edited by victorsra on Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 17:17

The Olympic "problem" doesn't only relate to hosts. Remember that in 2015-16 Japan was equally invited to four tournaments as Asian entrants to the Olympics. They may not give that spot to the host, but if a non-core team qualifies through regional olympic qualifiers World Rugby will do whatever it takes to ensure it will be reasonably competitive at the Olympics.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 17:46

Not sure about that. Kenya and Colombia qualified to the women's Olympic tournament ang got nothing. Kenya and China are qualified to 2020 too and nothing. With second division tournaments I don't believe they'll mess with the top series.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 17:56

Kenya and Colombia were invited to a tournament each, with Brazil playing the rest.

This year we've had Japan except for South Africa being hosts in Cape Town, there is still time for Kenya and China to feature.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Platonese » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:24

WR is always in for some surprises.

As strange as this may look at first sight, there might actually be some reasonable thinking behind it. Just speculating now:

New Challenger Series starts end of september in Munich at the Oktoberfest 7s (WR can ´t fit it into the regualr calendar, but it´ s a great venue). Second stop is Dubai. Start of the World Series, second tournament of the Challenger Series, Dubai is a second 7s hotspot. Then have a break, got to Chile and Uruguay in februar/march and finish in Hong Kong in april. Winner goes up and has enough time to prepare for the next season.

Just speculating, but maye WR reads it ;)

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Platonese » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:26

Obviously, the setup I mentioned could start in september 2020. The premier season will be 2 tournaments in South America and then HK

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:27

Rather than Dubai I would see Safari Sevens in Kenya, even though it wouldn't make much sense without Kenya involved...

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:35

Armchair Fan wrote:Kenya and Colombia were invited to a tournament each, with Brazil playing the rest.

This year we've had Japan except for South Africa being hosts in Cape Town, there is still time for Kenya and China to feature.

Well, 1 tournament is what always happens for each continent's best. The Olympics did not change that, apart from giving Colombia (instead of Brazil) one tournament. Kenya got what they were expected to get.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:37

Armchair Fan wrote:Rather than Dubai I would see Safari Sevens in Kenya, even though it wouldn't make much sense without Kenya involved...



Oktoberfest 7s and Roma 7s would be very logical, in the same logic of upgrading Punta and Viña. But the Safari 7s has a problem: Kenya is a 1st division team... but Safari 7s would work very well for the women's challenger series.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby mulu » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:55

victorsra wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Rather than Dubai I would see Safari Sevens in Kenya, even though it wouldn't make much sense without Kenya involved...



Oktoberfest 7s and Roma 7s would be very logical, in the same logic of upgrading Punta and Viña. But the Safari 7s has a problem: Kenya is a 1st division team... but Safari 7s would work very well for the women's challenger series.


Munich will never host the Challenger Series. How does anyone want to attract a crowd for Germany vs Jamaica?

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 19:07

You won't attract a crowd for Germany vs Jamaica specificaly. You'll attract a crowd to support Germany in all 5-6 matches (against a range of teams from Jamaica or PNG to Italy or Japan) that can lead your team to the top division.

That's pretty obvious.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby mulu » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 19:14

victorsra wrote:The next Olympic problem will possibly be 2032. Two of the most likely bids come from Jakarta (Indonesia) and Mumbai (India). But Madrid can bid too and Spain os at least now a core team as well.

About GB, I really hope Wales or Scotland are relegated and England has a dificult season for the British realise it is better to play sevens as GB and have the home nations teams only for the Commonwealth Games. They should spend that money in PRO14, period.


better don’t hope for it. This will only lead to WR reducing the WS to 12 teams to better accommodate the combined men and women events. wait for it!

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 20:11

Definitly not true.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Edgar » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 20:14

Serevi wants to coach Fiji :thumbup: :D

Fiji 7s Legend Waisale Serevi has revealed to international media that he wants to return and end his rugby career coaching the national sevens side.
The King of Sevens was present at the Dubai 7s with his young Russia 7s Development side.
Serevi told ‘Gulf News’ that
“I have always done everything for rugby in Fiji through a 21-year career. I’ve played in seven Rugby World Cups and won two as a captain for Fiji. It will be a great story to end up in Fiji coaching Fiji one of these years,” Serevi told Gulf News.
“At the moment I am focused on Russia sevens. However, if the opportunity is there then who knows? It all started in Fiji and it could end in Fiji,” he smiled.


https://www.fbcnews.com.fj/sports/seven ... olsSIYOWf0

Promotion and relegation in as World Rugby Sevens expands
Great to see Jamaica & PNG involved, 2 nations with obvious potential to really excel in 7s: https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/12/18/p ... Dw5xP5QQbg

& expected lineup for the Hamilton 7s, first international rugby event of the 2020s: :thumbup: 8-)

Image

Official-like . . .

Image

Pretty close 8-) 8-)
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby mulu » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 21:05

victorsra wrote:Definitly not true.


Are you sure? WR has discussed this before with the current core teams. From a WR perspective it makes sense for several reasons (olympic format, combined events and costs).

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 21:42

Totaly sure. Rugby Sevens is an Olympic sport, an international bet of WR (not one tradicional cartel thing). They won't cut their elite competition and risk an Olympic tournament with non-elite teams. To have 12 teams series is a dumb option as the Olympic Qualy will probably mess with it. They know it from the women's series, BTW, but the women's series need to consolidate more at the moment and their number 1 issue is the double events with the men's series. But there are talks about the women's series going to 16, as South Africa may improve and to let China and Japan out is not smart for a series that needs audience.

They know the risk of non-core teams in the Olympics already exist because of the hosts, but they won't risk the success of their Olympic sport. Sevens is not where their conservatism appears. You may be mad about Japan taking spots in the series (or Brazil in 2015-16), but this is only happening because of the Olympics. Their goal is clearly expansion, specialy because the series is not a comercial success and it has nothing to do with the format. They need people watching it and the T1s don't help, as 15s is much more interesting. People in T1s have their leagues to watch and care about much more than sevens.

They need more markets involved and the cartel nations don't care about it like they care about 15s to try to fuck its size. And sevens all over the world have Olympic money. Makes zero sense. Even the GB question I bet will be solved because Scottish and Welsh Unions will probably realise their money worths more invested in their PRO14 problems.

In other words, whilst in 15s their conversatism makes sense for them (even if we see it as short minded), in 7s it doesn't.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 22:37

I think that we should celebrate that the World Rugby has increased the status of the South American series to World Challenge.

South American teams will continue qualifying through the South American Sevens, which can be held anywhere in the continent.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 22:41

That's the problem. We know nothing about Sudamerica Sevens future. Brazil won't bid to host anything, that's for sure. I hope to see a tournament in Lima or Medellín.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 07:43

After some thought I think this is even more disastrous in lots of ways.

1. World Rugby showed once more that they are absolutely incapable of organizing like professionals. You don't change rules in between if you are not absolutely incompetent. Teams played for stints on the World Series AND for the HK Qualifier. They've lost now everything. This draws a disastrous picture to the sport. Imagine in soccer a club qualifies for the Champions League, but is then told in June that they've changed the format and they need to play a qualification tournament. They should have waited for one more year, so everybody (fans, media included) knows what a teams play for. This is exactly what drives people away from our sport.

2. It takes a lot to be a player on this level in a smaller nation. If you achieve something, it is simply devastating to take it away from them. It is a kick in the balls, and I hope nobody will focus on different things in life because of the amateurism of World Rugby.

3. From a coach's point of view this is a nightmare. It basically kills the whole preparation for the HK 7s. Last year those tournaments were used to give fringe players some game-time and slowly build towards HK. Now you need to make sure, that everyone is close to peak level to qualify for something they had already qualified for.

4. All of this shows that World Rugby simply doesn't care and can't imagine the slightest bit what emerging nations have to go through to play the game and improve and even more disastrous how to actually motivate emerging nations to get better. Legal security is one of many key words World Rugby is missing in its organization.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby germanbullsfan » Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 10:54

After some thought I think this is even more disastrous in lots of ways.

1. World Rugby showed once more that they are absolutely incapable of organizing like professionals. You don't change rules in between if you are not absolutely incompetent. Teams played for stints on the World Series AND for the HK Qualifier. They've lost now everything. This draws a disastrous picture to the sport. Imagine in soccer a club qualifies for the Champions League, but is then told in June that they've changed the format and they need to play a qualification tournament. They should have waited for one more year, so everybody (fans, media included) knows what a teams play for. This is exactly what drives people away from our sport.

2. It takes a lot to be a player on this level in a smaller nation. If you achieve something, it is simply devastating to take it away from them. It is a kick in the balls, and I hope nobody will focus on different things in life because of the amateurism of World Rugby.

3. From a coach's point of view this is a nightmare. It basically kills the whole preparation for the HK 7s. Last year those tournaments were used to give fringe players some game-time and slowly build towards HK. Now you need to make sure, that everyone is close to peak level to qualify for something they had already qualified for.

4. All of this shows that World Rugby simply doesn't care and can't imagine the slightest bit what emerging nations have to go through to play the game and improve and even more disastrous how to actually motivate emerging nations to get better. Legal security is one of many key words World Rugby is missing in its organization.


Rugby Liebe , cant agree more about this with you, 100 % spot on !

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 12:14

I can't see your point. How would you kick off a 7s second division series?
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 12:54

victorsra wrote:I can't see your point. How would you kick off a 7s second division series?


1. Always stick to your own rules: Simply by not altering already promised qualification paths and bloody communicate extremely openly what you want to do and why. They are pretty consistent though in being the most incompetent sport in this case worldwide. Where is the announcement that Japan gets the spots i.e.? Who decides this and based on what? Incompetence!

2. Timing: If they would have announced this in April 2019 i.e. at the HK 7s 2019, all would be fair enough. Nothing is worse for a sport if promised and achieved things are taken away. And that's not a first, but a regular thing in rugby. This stops growth, this stops credibility of a sport who wants to be more than a joke.

3. Define the product correctly: By making sure that a Series is a Series and not a two tournament thing on the same continent and that those smaller nations actually get more than they already got. We all know South America has not enough nations to be a functional federation in 7s, but that's not the case in Europe. What European teams (and the best teams of SA as well) need, is games against the very best in a tournament they don't take lightly. Those are taken away, because of the absent of guest teams on this year's W7S. Don't sugar coat things, when they are simply a lie. As it is this Series is not done to give those nations MORE games on a higher level as they stated. If you give 6 teams less games on the World Series, that is absolutely not the case.

4. Do it for the sake of the game, treat everybody as equals: Don't ever give somebody the impression, that this is just a small present they give you, while the guy steals your wallet. If they wouldn't have taken those places away and break written contracts, also fair enough. If they wouldn't have reduced the participant numbers in the HK 7s, also fair enough. Stick to your bloody rules, then modifications will be seen positive. Rugby only does this because it can and because it is widely ignorant of its own game AND because it definitely prefers their Cartel and that's not acceptable. And all of us need to stop to be naive about this. World Rugby does not serve the interest of all of its members but actively works against them if a nation could become slightly dangerous to a member nation of the board.

5. Take a step back if neccessary If you can't make sure, that you fulfil or avoid those 4 points above, that's okay. Then you announce it as a test run and competitional preparation to the HK 7s Qualifier (which would stay at the same number as stated in the competition participation contracts your Unions signed when they qualified for it)


I just listened to your brilliant episode on the Rugby Reloaded podcast btw. Congrats on that, great to listen and I love your enthusiasm, which could be heard.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 13:15

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:I can't see your point. How would you kick off a 7s second division series?


1. Always stick to your own rules: Simply by not altering already promised qualification paths and bloody communicate extremely openly what you want to do and why. They are pretty consistent though in being the most incompetent sport in this case worldwide. Where is the announcement that Japan gets the spots i.e.? Who decides this and based on what? Incompetence!

2. Timing: If they would have announced this in April 2019 i.e. at the HK 7s 2019, all would be fair enough. Nothing is worse for a sport if promised and achieved things are taken away. And that's not a first, but a regular thing in rugby. This stops growth, this stops credibility of a sport who wants to be more than a joke.

3. Define the product correctly: By making sure that a Series is a Series and not a two tournament thing on the same continent and that those smaller nations actually get more than they already got. We all know South America has not enough nations to be a functional federation in 7s, but that's not the case in Europe. What European teams (and the best teams of SA as well) need, is games against the very best in a tournament they don't take lightly. Those are taken away, because of the absent of guest teams on this year's W7S. Don't sugar coat things, when they are simply a lie. As it is this Series is not done to give those nations MORE games on a higher level as they stated. If you give 6 teams less games on the World Series, that is absolutely not the case.

4. Do it for the sake of the game, treat everybody as equals: Don't ever give somebody the impression, that this is just a small present they give you, while the guy steals your wallet. If they wouldn't have taken those places away and break written contracts, also fair enough. If they wouldn't have reduced the participant numbers in the HK 7s, also fair enough. Stick to your bloody rules, then modifications will be seen positive. Rugby only does this because it can and because it is widely ignorant of its own game AND because it definitely prefers their Cartel and that's not acceptable. And all of us need to stop to be naive about this. World Rugby does not serve the interest of all of its members but actively works against them if a nation could become slightly dangerous to a member nation of the board.

5. Take a step back if neccessary If you can't make sure, that you fulfil or avoid those 4 points above, that's okay. Then you announce it as a test run and competitional preparation to the HK 7s Qualifier (which would stay at the same number as stated in the competition participation contracts your Unions signed when they qualified for it)


I just listened to your brilliant episode on the Rugby Reloaded podcast btw. Congrats on that, great to listen and I love your enthusiasm, which could be heard.


Thanks, mate!

About your points, AFAIK the teams already knew there would be changes and that Punta and Viña would be new legs of a new series. I know about this since at least the middle of the year, after talking do CBRu. I don't believe coaches were thinking they were just preparing to HK. Definitly they all knew for a long time about the series. But of course WR is realy bad on communications.

About Punta and Viña, I realy believe we are back to the finances problem. WR is only probably using the two tournaments that made a bid to host a new series (and 2019 Sudamerica Series was clearly a lab for that). Punta and Viña are most likely paying most of the costs (remember Viña had recently a bid for the main series). Also, South America is the only continent without a Sevens Series leg + it has at least 3 teams that are 2nd Division-level. In any 16-teams 2nd division scenario South America would have 3 teams (Chile, Uruguay and Brazil), that's for sure.

Why there are no tournaments in Europe? We can only try to guess, but probably nobody wanted to pay for it. Don't see this as a WR fault unless we defend they should pay for the whole thing (and yes, I agree they should, but they can?). As this is only season 1, it is pretty much likely to see it getting European legs soon for season 2, let's be patient. They are clarly experimenting.
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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