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Sevens World Series/7's News

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 15:04

What you mean is if it pays itself? I think yes, I remember to have read this. Host countries pay most costs and it doesn't look like to have shortage of venues. That's why WR wants to merge the women's tournaments with the men's, in fact.

The major costs that WR pays are teams' and referees' (and WR own staff's) air travels and the broadcast. Almost all the other costs, including hotel, hospitality, stadium, training areas, is up to the host country.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 17:02

victorsra wrote:What you mean is if it pays itself? I think yes, I remember to have read this. Host countries pay most costs and it doesn't look like to have shortage of venues. That's why WR wants to merge the women's tournaments with the men's, in fact.

The major costs that WR pays are teams' and referees' (and WR own staff's) air travels and the broadcast. Almost all the other costs, including hotel, hospitality, stadium, training areas, is up to the host country.


I suppose what I mean is, what TV revenues does in generate? Who gets them? If the host countries are the only people that make money and only make that money from ticket sales then it is absolutely no wonder nothing is even being proposed until fans can come in and no wonder at all that non-hosting countries are looking to cut their programmes.

If it made money from its TV contracts they'd have bubbled up somewhere and finished the season.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 18:22

I suppose (without a source) that WR's costs are payed by HSBC/DHL sponsorships and maybe TV. I don't believe the men's Sevens Series depends on the RWC revenue. Now both DHL and HSBC sponsors the women's series as well, so I guess maybe it is the same, which makes it necessary to have joint tournaments (exposure and costs).

About host unions' costs, that are bigger, they are payed by the tickets and most tournaments have their specific sponsors. I think some tournaments pay off (like Hong Kong or Dubai), others don't. And definitly the players salaries are up to the unions (some receiving Olympic money). In the end, the Sevens Series defintily doesn't generate profit for the national unions, but I believe WR doesn't depend on RWC money to run it.

Anyway, it would be good to have a proper source to claim this.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 19:28

victorsra wrote:What you mean is if it pays itself? I think yes, I remember to have read this. Host countries pay most costs and it doesn't look like to have shortage of venues. That's why WR wants to merge the women's tournaments with the men's, in fact.

The major costs that WR pays are teams' and referees' (and WR own staff's) air travels and the broadcast. Almost all the other costs, including hotel, hospitality, stadium, training areas, is up to the host country.


The costs for the World Series are almost all on the hosts. This is a huge revenue center yearly for World Rugby as they maintain a significant portion of the sponsor inventory that is available to sell. So promoters really need to get close to a 75% use rate per day if they don't own the venue and closer to 65% if they own the venue.

Event Promoter/Host pays for
-Team Flights
-Team Hotels
-Team Food
-Local Trans
-Liaison Services
-Broadcast Production
-Sponsor Activation

World Rugby pays for
-Staff
-referees

So when you think about it-Singapore loses a ton of money every year. New Zealand 7s lost a ton of money this year and the year before. Killed off beer sales in Wellington, no idea what's going on in Hamilton. Sydney 7s this year lost a lot, but also was insanely hot, so maybe they actually sold those tickets?

Not every promoter/host nation has local TV rights as part of their host agreement with World Rugby. NBC purchased the rights for the Series directly from World Rugby.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 20:04

Team flights too? In the women's series I'm pretty sure WR pays that.

But, that's basicaly what I suggested: the major costs are with the hosts. Thanks.

And the numbers of hosts grew...
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 22:45

Scotland launched a new sevens jersey... https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/scot ... it-2020/21
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 02:05

Without knowing when it costs to run each Sevens events it's impossible to know how much money the Series actually brings into the game.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Canalina » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 06:54

Someone here in the forum wrote that the San Francisco World Cup, which was a decent success to me, produced a loss, payed by World Rugby, and that the entry of Pichot into the US Rugby board was a sort of exchange for that payment. If the World Cup was an economical loss, I would suppose that also some of the stages of the series are economically passive.
Anyway it comes now to my mind that It's also true that there were a lot of bids for the World Cup 2022, from minor countries too (Argentina, Cayman, France, Germany, India, Jamaica, Malaysia, Qatar, Scotland, South Africa, Tunisia, according to wikipedia) and this suggests that the event is not economically so undoable

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 13:34

The San Francisco event ended up being a bit of a disaster in terms of scheduling which I think contributed greatly. Sevens has always had a set format that has worked for most of its history, over the last few years we've started to see that format altered to weaker results. Dumb decisions like stopping beer from being served in Wellington doesn't help either. It would be good to actually have a financial breakdown of how much each leg costs to run.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 14:13

But RWC7s lost its place in rugby sevens. It has nothing to do with the Series.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 15:07

It certainly needs a bit of re-inventing and re-positioning. But its a good brand and historic, relatively, so shouldn't be thrown away.

Transparency over 7s income and costs would be interesting. Certainly would help us work out what works, what doesn't and what ideas could be interesting in the future.

Good informative post from StroBro with the information of where some of the costs fall. Interesting that TV rights seems to be sold differently in different markets, the implication seems to be that some hosts sell their own rights, while World Rugby sell some rights directly?

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 17:29

Yes, it is an important brand. I realy thought 2018 was interesting, and I was alone and... wrong :lol:

But I don't think the old model is meaningful now, with the Series and the Olympics. It can't go back to 2013, but can't keep with 2018's model either.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 18:57

victorsra wrote:Yes, it is an important brand. I realy thought 2018 was interesting, and I was alone and... wrong :lol:

But I don't think the old model is meaningful now, with the Series and the Olympics. It can't go back to 2013, but can't keep with 2018's model either.


Looking it back up i think the direct knock out is the only way really. Anything with a pool stage is too similar to a series event surely?

Maybe a really big tournament, 32 teams could be different enough to still have a pool stage? Will be interesting to see how it goes in Cape Town in 2022.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 19:28

victorsra wrote:Team flights too? In the women's series I'm pretty sure WR pays that.

But, that's basicaly what I suggested: the major costs are with the hosts. Thanks.

And the numbers of hosts grew...


Yes, that is part of the deal.

In addition, some background on RWC 7s. Optically the Moscow event was a massive failure due to a lack of attendance. But RWC 7s as an event is something that has only generated a profit once and that was 1997 in Hong Kong. 2005 Hong Kong broke even. Every other time it has generated a loss.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Canalina » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 19:34

Maybe they should split the men's and women's RWC tournaments. It's very nice to have the two events melted, like a common feast, but if the women's sessions must be deserted by the public like in San Francisco, maybe it is better giving the women their dedicated own stage like it happens in XV. This would permit to have 32 men teams and maybe also 32 women teams, and with the knock out system a two days program should be enough for both the events

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 20:00

Canalina wrote:Maybe they should split the men's and women's RWC tournaments. It's very nice to have the two events melted, like a common feast, but if the women's sessions must be deserted by the public like in San Francisco, maybe it is better giving the women their dedicated own stage like it happens in XV. This would permit to have 32 men teams and maybe also 32 women teams, and with the knock out system a two days program should be enough for both the events


The easy way to do this is to alternate Men's and Women's matches rather than having 4 hour blocks.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 20:07

In the T1 perspective (and their audience is still crucial), 24 or 32-teams RWC7s are useless, as it makes no further challenge than a common Series leg. That's is the major point. It means the RWC7s will keep being in the shadow of the Series - and obviously of the Olympics. In the other hand, for T2s, RWC7s is important because they can sell to sponsors, governments, media and fans they are in a World Cup.

However, a Series 2nd division is more important now because it gives calendar to those teams and therefore create a bigger chance that those teams aren't mere supporting actors of the RWC7s.

That said, RWC7s to be comercialy attractive in T1s must offers a special challenge something different from the Series or the Olympics. That's why I thought in 2018 that the knockout-only formula was cool, but as half of the teams play only 15 minutes of meaningful action it sucked.

I'd like to see a formula that articulates the Sevens Series with the RWC7s. That would be mutualy important in the future. For exemple, if both 2021-22 and 2022-23 Series is somehow linked to the 2024 Olympics and both 2023-24 and 2024-25 Series are directly linked in a meaningful way to the 2026 RWC7s.

The easy way to do this is to alternate Men's and Women's matches rather than having 4 hour blocks.

Yes.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 22:40

TheStroBro wrote:
Canalina wrote:Maybe they should split the men's and women's RWC tournaments. It's very nice to have the two events melted, like a common feast, but if the women's sessions must be deserted by the public like in San Francisco, maybe it is better giving the women their dedicated own stage like it happens in XV. This would permit to have 32 men teams and maybe also 32 women teams, and with the knock out system a two days program should be enough for both the events


The easy way to do this is to alternate Men's and Women's matches rather than having 4 hour blocks.

Teams complain because it means they must stay more hours at the stadium and generates bigger rest imbalances.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 23:26

Alternating won't work from a TV perspective either. If people are only interested in the mens tournament they're not going to like having every second game be a womens match. They won't tune in.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 02:46

Why?

Don't see any evidence for that.

Most people don't care about sevens in the first place. You need to understand who watches sevens to claim this.

And which public. Stadium public are usually there for the party and if their country is doing well i'm pretty sure they will watch. If it is young people there for the party, I'm pretty sure they stay.

If the question is TV, I think very few people watch sevens non stop paying attention. They are definitely mixing with the mobile or computer, for exemple.

Sevens is not 15s in terms of consuption IMO.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 03:06

Plenty of evidence when you look at the number of people who left before the women’s final at the 2018 World Cup. I’m not saying it’s fair, but you have to factor in viewing habits and the demographic that’s watching.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 05:42

And the probably there were more people there than if it was a specific women's tournament...

But that's a detail in the moment. The question is which format (for each tournament) the RWC7s needs.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 07:02

They have to be consistent. This year they had different formats for the various tournaments legs. Usually it was only Hong Kong that was given special treatment.

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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby victorsra » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 14:17

I mean RWC7s, not the Series.
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Re: Sevens World Series/7's News

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 14:46

How about merging the men's and women's matches, with two quarters each?

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