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The future of Italian Rugby

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 18 Nov 2020, 18:24

They clearly have more money than other clubs...

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 18 Nov 2020, 18:38

victorsra wrote:They clearly have more money than other clubs...


Where is their money coming from?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 18 Nov 2020, 20:34

Kawazaki Robot is their main sponsor. I believe that's a very rich region.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 05:35

A seasonal prospect of the national championship. "ci" means Coppa Italia weekend, "TD" means Top10 (Top Dieci) weekend. The number in a box means points conquered in that match, so it indicates that the match was played. Grey box means a rest weekend, orange box means a postponed game, green boxes indicate a weekend free so disposable for rematches.
All in all, the orange boxes must not overcome the green boxes; but as you can see some clubs have already four orange boxes, id est four games postponed

Image

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 06:08

Do you really think Scotland should leave the Pro 14 and launch their own pro league? I thought the Scottish teams had good rivalries with the Irish and Welsh teams. There are strong cultural links and rivalries between the peoples of the British Isles. Italy is a major country and should be able to support its own professional league.
I guess Scotland could probably support a 6 team professional league with teams in Melrose, Glasgow, Ayr, Stirling and two in Edinburgh.[/quote]

There is a semi pro league in place ( no Glasgow , 3 in Edinburgh - but thats a discussion for the pub :D ) but it has not been developed at the same pace as the Pro teams. And I think the domestic game would improve long term if there was more priority put in place for a professional league rather than the 2 current pro teams.
The problem is, rugby has gone too far in one direction for Scotland to withdraw from the Pro 14 and the gap globally, not just in Scotland. is too great between professional rugby and semi -pro and would risk the standard dropping for a generation as the semi pro turn to pro and try to catch back up.
If Scotland werent going to focus on developing a professional domestic league , they should be pushing to have 5-6 teams in an expanded Pro League.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 07:40

Rebus wrote:Do you really think Scotland should leave the Pro 14 and launch their own pro league? I thought the Scottish teams had good rivalries with the Irish and Welsh teams. There are strong cultural links and rivalries between the peoples of the British Isles. Italy is a major country and should be able to support its own professional league.
I guess Scotland could probably support a 6 team professional league with teams in Melrose, Glasgow, Ayr, Stirling and two in Edinburgh.


There is a semi pro league in place ( no Glasgow , 3 in Edinburgh - but thats a discussion for the pub :D ) but it has not been developed at the same pace as the Pro teams. And I think the domestic game would improve long term if there was more priority put in place for a professional league rather than the 2 current pro teams.
The problem is, rugby has gone too far in one direction for Scotland to withdraw from the Pro 14 and the gap globally, not just in Scotland. is too great between professional rugby and semi -pro and would risk the standard dropping for a generation as the semi pro turn to pro and try to catch back up.
If Scotland werent going to focus on developing a professional domestic league , they should be pushing to have 5-6 teams in an expanded Pro League.[/quote]

I think what could help professional rugby grow in Scotland, and in Italy, would be to grow the European competition, so there are more European games, and maybe also merge the Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup, so there is no lessor competition, or keep Pro 14 but shorten it so there's also room in the calendar for a domestic season. The domestic season could be played in the summer in Scotland and on Italy, so it doesn't clash with football and winter sports, and the weather is nicer for spectators. This would be similar to the rugby season in South Africa until last year, with Super Rugby being the equivalent of a new European club competition, and Currie Cup being the equivalent of Scotland's Super Six and Italy's Top10.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Figaro » Thu, 19 Nov 2020, 20:17

There are a lot of benefits to a smaller number of teams that nobody is acknowledging here. Obviously everyone wants a 10+ pro league team like England and France have but that isn't realistic for most countries. The idea that Scotland would go for a fully pro domestic setup over the Pro14 is laughable.

The biggest advantage is coaching. There is a finite amount of top coaching talent in the world. Fewer teams means not just more cash per team to attract the best coaches, but also that a bigger proportion of your top players are playing under those same top coaches.

Now, concentrating your second tier like Scotland have done also makes a.lot of sense for the same reasons. Wales should do the same and halve the size of the Welsh premiership.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 20 Nov 2020, 07:31

Figaro wrote:There are a lot of benefits to a smaller number of teams that nobody is acknowledging here. Obviously everyone wants a 10+ pro league team like England and France have but that isn't realistic for most countries. The idea that Scotland would go for a fully pro domestic setup over the Pro14 is laughable.

The biggest advantage is coaching. There is a finite amount of top coaching talent in the world. Fewer teams means not just more cash per team to attract the best coaches, but also that a bigger proportion of your top players are playing under those same top coaches.

Now, concentrating your second tier like Scotland have done also makes a.lot of sense for the same reasons. Wales should do the same and halve the size of the Welsh premiership.


Yes, I think slimming the Welsh Premiership down to 8 teams would be an improvement. Keep relegation/promotion with the Championship for the bottom/top, and top 6 qualify for the new tournament with the Scottish Six semi pro teams.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 20 Nov 2020, 21:35

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:There are a lot of benefits to a smaller number of teams that nobody is acknowledging here. Obviously everyone wants a 10+ pro league team like England and France have but that isn't realistic for most countries. The idea that Scotland would go for a fully pro domestic setup over the Pro14 is laughable.

The biggest advantage is coaching. There is a finite amount of top coaching talent in the world. Fewer teams means not just more cash per team to attract the best coaches, but also that a bigger proportion of your top players are playing under those same top coaches.

Now, concentrating your second tier like Scotland have done also makes a.lot of sense for the same reasons. Wales should do the same and halve the size of the Welsh premiership.


Yes, I think slimming the Welsh Premiership down to 8 teams would be an improvement. Keep relegation/promotion with the Championship for the bottom/top, and top 6 qualify for the new tournament with the Scottish Six semi pro teams.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sat, 21 Nov 2020, 14:02

Today's games, supposedly at 15 CET (but the streams still didn't start)

Calvisano v Fiamme Oro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2GeEgaRvQ

Lazio v Mogliano
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow_KYzYDRwg

Lyons Piacenza v Viadana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQY3SBDdNCE

Postponed
Valorugby v Rovigo
Petrarca v Colorno

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Sat, 21 Nov 2020, 14:37

Figaro wrote:There are a lot of benefits to a smaller number of teams that nobody is acknowledging here. Obviously everyone wants a 10+ pro league team like England and France have but that isn't realistic for most countries. The idea that Scotland would go for a fully pro domestic setup over the Pro14 is laughable.

The biggest advantage is coaching. There is a finite amount of top coaching talent in the world. Fewer teams means not just more cash per team to attract the best coaches, but also that a bigger proportion of your top players are playing under those same top coaches.

Now, concentrating your second tier like Scotland have done also makes a.lot of sense for the same reasons. Wales should do the same and halve the size of the Welsh premiership.


What you have just said is laughable and ignores the point that costs are spiralling out of reach for Tier 1 countries. The costs for running 2 teams are absurd for the benefits Scotland are receiving. Currently the SRU playing budget is around £10 million for running 2 teams and for that Scotland will only have around 75 players, including project players, across the two squads eligible and a handful of exiles. These teams are frequently coached by non-Scots, have limited success in Europe and only recently have decent success in the Pro 14. The under 20's were relegated to the second division of the Age grade competitons and there are fewer Scottish referees in top flight World rugby.

The benefit of developing a successful domestic league is that you will a wider spread of players , give a better platform for younger players and developing coaches. It would give domestic referees more games to officiate to develop their talents and provide pathways to officiate at a higher level. To do it you would require the SRU to inject funding to the top tier teams to support the financing of the teams as well as requiring private money coming into it. I agree it would benefit from more of these teams playing in cross border competitions to encourage development of the game.

Edinburgh have already stated they find it difficult to complete in the Pro14 on their existing budget and this will have got worse with Covid. So why keep trying to complete at a level that is not affordable and instead follow the MLR model , put a salary cap into the league and try to grow the game organically. It would not cost companies like the BBC much to show a live game a highlights package every week.
But I do not think it is at all laughable for Scotland to move to a domestic league with the constraints of finances , low domestic crowds for the professional teams and limited playing pool.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 06:27

Peroni Top10, third round
Calvisano v Fiamme Oro 22-3 (it was 0-3 at halftime)
Lazio v Mogliano 11-31
Lyons Piacenza v Viadana 25-24 (last second winning try)

Ranking (*=postponed games)
Rovigo 10*
Mogliano 5*
Fiamme Oro 5*
Calvisano 4**
Valorugby 4**
Lyons Piacenza 4*
Viadana 1*
Petrarca Padova 0***
Colorno 0**
Lazio 0**

Fourth round, next saturday
Mogliano v Valorugby
Rovigo v Lazio
Viadana v Calvisano
Colorno v Lyons
Fiamme Oro v Petrarca

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 07:33

A map of Emilia-Romagna, the region with Zebre (in Parma) and most Top10 clubs (in Piacenza, Colorno and Reggio)
Viadana is just outside the northern border, a pair of kilometers into Lombardia

Image

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 09:21

Canalina wrote:A map of Emilia-Romagna, the region with Zebre (in Parma) and most Top10 clubs (in Piacenza, Colorno and Reggio)
Viadana is just outside the northern border, a pair of kilometers into Lombardia

Image


Nice. It is clear that Piacenza, Parma and Reggio-Emilia are large, well connected cities. These 3 definitely should be in any future Italian top division.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 09:22

Canalina, do you think you could do the same for the Veneto region?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 15:33

Great map.
Zebre was traditionally the representative team for the North West region. While the Wolves were from Central and South region.

The Italian union should be looking to make more of these historical names.

The only thing I would change is getting them into the French League.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 15:39

Higgik wrote:The only thing I would change is getting them into the French League.

Why not English Premiership? It's equally impossible.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 18:09

Higgik wrote:Great map.
Zebre was traditionally the representative team for the North West region. While the Wolves were from Central and South region.

The Italian union should be looking to make more of these historical names.

The only thing I would change is getting them into the French League.


There were three regional teams in Italy in the amateur era: Dogi (Tri-Veneto = Veneto + Trentino Alto Adige + Friuli Venezia Giulia = North East), Zebre (North West) and Lupi (center-south). However, AFAIK they never played each other for a trophy, like the Irish provinces and the Scottish districts/regions. I guess they lacked real representiveness, but I'd like to know that from Italians. Maybe in Veneto there is a stronger sense that the Dogi were once their "national team". But Zebre and Lupi put together regions that struggle to see a broader identity between them (uniting Sicily with Lazio, for exemple, seems very artificial).

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 27 Nov 2020, 13:48

Just two games also this saturday in the Peroni Top10, round four
Postponed: Rovigo v Lazio, Mogliano v Valorugby, Fiamme Oro v Padova, on request of the three away clubs

Tomorrow two lives at 14.30 and 15.00 CET




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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Wed, 02 Dec 2020, 11:54

Adrian Adam, Moldova national team fullback (I've seen on the archive of this forum that he played at least a pair of test matches two years ago), has been aggregated permamently to the first squad of Mogliano.
Anyway he comes from the second team of the same club, so I suppose it will be not easy for him to find space on the Top10 match sheets

(he his not the man of the photos in the article)
https://www.rugbymogliano.it/per-moglia ... a-cadetta/

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