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The future of Italian Rugby

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 15:49

Batti wrote:Does anyone know how much money the Benetton Treviso gets from the italian federation ?

4.8 M€ per season:
https://tribunatreviso.gelocal.it/sport ... 1.39178143

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Batti » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 16:15

Armchair Fan wrote:
Batti wrote:Does anyone know how much money the Benetton Treviso gets from the italian federation ?

4.8 M€ per season:
https://tribunatreviso.gelocal.it/sport ... 1.39178143


Grazie mille !

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:22

victorsra wrote:
carbonero wrote:A joint venture with Italy would be a commercial failure. Argentina cannot partially fund the squad without any financial return.

Spain is different because you don’t depend solely on the local crowd. A team in Madrid, Barcelona, Mallorca, Málaga or Alicante could garner support from the thousands of Argentines living in those regions (a number that is growing as we speak). There could be a reasonable return on investment. If Pro16 doesn’t want to expand, you can always replace Zebre. If they want to charge a fee, there is a broadcaster willing to pay. It is still fanciful but ten times more realistic that working with Italy.

Sorry for the off-topic. Let’s hope Petrarca comes through


You are missing the most important point. Pro14's fee for an Argentine team in Spain would cost around 12 million euros (Pichot said between 6 and 12 million in an interview and that was before CVC takeover).

Obviously in Spain would be a huge fail, because you start with a big fee.

Italy doesn't pay fees and if it is also an Italian team there would mean less costs (sharing with Fir) and it would be for the Italian public an Italian team, specialy with Italian players involved. Nothing different than Zebre. Argentine public would be irrelevant in this equation. This only needs to pay itself.


What I mean is a process like this:

- FIR already owns Zebre

- FIR offers UAR a % of Zebre's ownership

- Zebre is rebranded, as part of the deal, becoming Jaguares

That's a much easier process than creating a team from scratch, bidding to join (and being accepted) and paying a heavy fee.


Nothing of this would be new in Italy. When in 2009 Italian teams entered in Pro14 the teams were Benetton and Aironi. Aironi was owned by Viadana and some other clubs and folded in 2012.
Last edited by victorsra on Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:29

The UAR needs to have control over the franchise. You can’t trust Italy to develop your players. And I can’t see any incentive for the FIR to yield control. Zebre would fold before following that path.

The other thing is that Argentina doesn't have funds to pay the FIR. They need to generate those resources from scratch. Where would that money come from? Again, there is no comercial upside in joint venture with Italy. An Argentine team in Spain could create fresh resources in terms of broadcasting, ticketing and sponsorship.

victorsra wrote:You are missing the most important point. Pro14's fee for an Argentine team in Spain would cost around 12 million euros (Pichot said between 6 and 12 million in an interview and that was before CVC takeover).

Nah. He was talking about the budget of a potential franchise. Pichot said in that same interview that Italy had to pay a participation fee of 3 million euros per team.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:35

Nothing of this would be new in Italy. When in 2009 Italian teams entered in Pro14 the teams were Benetton and Aironi. Aironi was owned by Viadana and some other clubs and folded in 2012.

Fir created Zebre, using a brand that was dead since the 1990s, relocatig it to Parma. Parma's tradicional club is Rugby Parma, that played the Heineken Cup and the Challenge Cup in the 2000s, btw. In 2010, Rugby Parma merged with Noceto to created the Crociati, that was disbanded in 2014. Zebre is not a continuity of Rugby Parma, since Rugby Parma still exists, playing now Serie B, after the end of Crociati. I don't know how people from Parma see Zebre, but rebranding is not new there.

UAR won't be admited as an expansion team in Pro16. It is realy unlikely to see so soon a Pro18. The deal could be t own the majority of the Italian franchise, a pretty good deal could be achieved if you have a good plan. Fir wants to sell, they already said. What Argentina offers? Winning culture. It is better to have 50 players winning often than 80 players with a 90% losing rate of worse. That is not good for those players.

And, I already checked, those Spanish cities have each one like 5-10k Argentines (and not all of them like rugby), which is definitely not enough for anything.
Last edited by victorsra on Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:51, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 18:42

South Africans will pay 10million pounds as fee. But they will play at home. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... d-19530174

Let's say Jaguares have a great deal, it won't be less than 3 million pounds just to start. Probably much more because of CVC and because it would make even more annoying changes in the competition's format and etc.

Much better to partner and acquire a majority stake of someone that already exists.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 19:54

Nothing of this would be new in Italy...

A foreign union owning a majority stake in a franchise won’t be new for Italy?

UAR won't be admited as an expansion team in Pro16..... Fir wants to sell, they already said.

Are we sure that the FIR can find takers in this climate? Zebre might fold. That’s their opening. No need for expansion.

What Argentina offers? Winning culture. It is better to have 50 players winning often than 80 players with a 90% losing rate of worse.

Who pays for that? Only our best players would move the needle. How can FIR/UAR afford them? Again, they need fresh funds. Something that you idea doesn't create.

those Spanish cities have each one like 5-10k Argentines (and not all of them like rugby), which is definitely not enough for anything.

There were 260K in 2019. I assume there has been an increase in the last year. And you need to account first generation Spaniards with Argentine parents. Then, the local crowd might catch a game once in while when Stormers or Leinster come to town. The Brits/Irish would also love an excuse to take a weekend in the south of Spain. How would the Parma Giaguari fare in comparison? Not even the kitman would show up for those games.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 20:23

It ia just a private owner, just like happens in many sports. And this is not new in rugby, Scotland has a stake of the Old Glory DC. It is only a matter of putting a minimum of local players.

Fir said they are considering Petrarca's offer.

What I'm defending is that it is better to have less Italians in a winning environment than the current situation.

How they fund? What are you asking? Fir already funds Zebre 100%, they would save money. About UAR, the same way they would fund any Jaguares project. I am the one saying it doesn't make any sense to have a Jaguares in Europe and that they should focus on Slar. But as UAR still thinks a team based overseas makes sense, this is for sure the cheapest alternative. No fee to pay, sharing costs and no need to build something from scratch, as the franchise already exists and have fans (and that's why rebranding history in Parma/Italian Pro Rugby is relevant context... If you are offering a better product than Zebre, you won't lose Zebre's fans probably, the team is already a recent invention...).

260k in the whole country, not in each city. Unless you believe all Argentines will want to travel to watch the team. And that all of them are wealthy enough to waste money on that. Utopic.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 22:38

It’s not just another owner. They come with strings attached. It is not the same to rebrand as Zebre than to rebrand as Jaguares (a Spanish word), with a foreign union having the controlling interest, a foreign training staff and majority of foreign players. The few Zebre fans would bolt even with an Italian quota.

About UAR, the same way they would fund any Jaguares project.

How? There is no extra money coming in. Again, the UAR needs to generate money to fund the project.

260k in the whole country, not in each city. Unless you believe all Argentines will want to travel to watch the team. And that all of them are wealthy enough to waste money on that. Utopic.

They just need around 4-5k. Find a nice little stadium. Let's say Ciudad de Malaga or the one in Benidorm. Play Friday nights. Make it a party. My Utopia is better than yours.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 02 Apr 2021, 22:58

It is pretty much the same, there is no difference between an Union and any other owner. If Fir has a % and a contract with conditions, it is the same. Scotland owns part of the Old Glory DC in MLR, for exemple. It is not new.

4-5k is not the maths. Do you know a city with 10k people and a professional team? People can be mad about the sport but not everybody attends. The % won't be big. You won't get like 30% of all Argentines of the city in the stadium every match the whole season. And we are talking about like at least 10-12 home matches. If in Buenos Aires you put like 10k in a city with hundreds of thousands of rugby fans, you actually believe you'll but 50% of that with a community of a couple thousands? Seriously? Please, don't compare our utopias.

And, again, I am the one that is saying for long time that UAR should accept Jaguares is over as a team in a high profile league exactly because I don't think they should waste that money. I am only showing the cheapest and easiest option to be in Pro16 if they realy think they need a better world class league for their beloved brand.

IMO UAR should give up from such projects and focus on SLAR and maybe Currie Cup, using Jaguares and not Jaguares XV as the brand.

Therefore, i am not defending my utopia. I don't have one, I made it clear since the begining. Who has one is UAR.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 00:04

The SRU has only 30% of Old Glory. Not a controlling interest. They just started playing. And they have only three Scottish players in the squad. I know I'm spitballing shitty ideas but in this particular point you can't be that obtuse.

The UAR needs a better pathway. SLAR is not enough. The Currie Cup First Division is even worse. Its dumb but with ESPN on board (and their partners Mediapro), Argentine expats, British expats, curious Spanish fans and traveling fans you could make it work. Crazier things have happened.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 02:03

Dude, you are REALY not getting the point at all. I know you are not obtuse, you just haven't thought properly or forgot how international sports work nowadays or missed how PRO16 operates.

First of all, there are 2 different things:

1 - FIR owns 2 spots in the PRO16 because FIR is a stakeowner of the league (I don't know the % now that CVC acquired part of it, probably around 10%. Gavazzi made a big deal when Italian spots changed from invited teams paying fees to stakeowners). The spots belong to FIR.

2 - When Italy was admited in the PRO14, FIR opened a bidding process. Do you remember that? They wanted both spots to be filled by privatly-owned teams. Pay attention, the spots are owned by FIR, but the teams were supposed to be private entities. Two private teams won the bid: Benetton Rugby (that is a clube, formery known as Treviso Rugby, that is owned by Benetton since the 1970s) and Aironi (a joint venture of many Lombardia and Emilia clubs, headed by Viadana club);

Then, Aironi disbanded. It failed. FIR had 2 options: open a new bid and keep the second spot with a private entity OR create a FIR-owned team. FIR decided to fully control it, creating the Zebre. Zebre, in fact, had two encarnations, I think the first one had a private partner, but the current one is 100% FIR-operated. Which means, FIR owns both spots: one 100% owned and operated by FIR and the other one conceded to a private entity, Benetton Rugby.

However, now Innocenti won FIR's election and he is talking about conceding Zebre's spot to someone else. Petrarca (a club, btw, Benetton's rival) is interested, for exemple.

So, who could bid to have Zebre's spot?

Looking at how sports work worldwide, basicaly anyone. It could be:

- A random billionaire, taking over Zebre;
- An investment group, like CVC, Silver Lake, also taking over Zebre etc;
- A local government?... can happen....;
- A company, like Armani, Red Bull, etc;
- An Italian rugby club (like Petrarca, Viadana, Rovigo, Calvisano, etc);
- A football club, like Milan, Juventus, etc;
- A foreign rugby club, like Racing, Saracens, etc, going on a Manchester City-mode. Why not?
- Or even someone that is not exactly a club, like Crusaders, in the same City-mode?
- Or.... another Union, like UAR. Nothing forbids.

How? Taking over Zebre and rebranding it? If so, how much of the ownership, 100%? 51%? Up to study.

As the spots are owned by FIR, they don't need to have a majority share. They can impose conditions for the bids, like a minimum % of Italian players and an Italian venue, and they also can settle a fee, a share in contracts, whatever. This means UAR or anyone else can have 100% control of the operation, but the spot belongs to FIR. UAR's goal is to have players playing together in Europe and to save the brand. This goals can be achieved if UAR controls the operation of the franchise.

It is funny, but it is like those national leagues that have teams from other countries involved. The difference is that Italy would be selling a share of a league they also share :lol: . Which is not that different, think about it. It is just a share of something you own. It doesn't matter if it is a share of 100% or a share of 10%. It is a share of a property, period. In this case, it is a share of Zebre, that could be a 51% share for UAR, for exemple, allowing a rebrand. What I'm basicaly saying is that UAR could make a deal to have a majority share and control of the operation of the Zebre, which means, to operate of one of the two spots owned by FIR in the PRO16. Capisce?

It is just up to how the contract is build and what can possibly interest FIR. IMO, they should consider the possibility of having less Italian players in the PRO16, but those remaining would be playing better rugby and winning a bit more, with possibly a better impact on the national team. If so, FIR could have two goals with the bid: reducing its own costs (as they operate Zebre, that doesn't look to be a golden egg duck) and creating stronger teams. That fits with my argument. Am I missing something?

Why I don't believe on that? Just because FIR won't dare such approach (has political risks) and UAR will soon realise this sort of adventure is not realistic and they should basicaly make sure they are exporting enough good talent and being able to have those players when it matters. Jaguares-era is over. It is better to build SLAR properly, with a long-term project.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 03:26

You mentioned Old Glory twice as a precedent. It had nothing to do with what you are describing. Instead of saying "my bad, that wasn't the case, but my point still stands", you decided to give me this condescending history lesson. This forum is going to end up being your personal diary. I'm out.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 03:46

Meanwhile the Peroni Top10, which seemed to go smoothly toward the play-off, has met again contagion problems. In the last weeks averagely one game per week has been postponed and the calendar is now over-full. Yesterday evening Petrarca-Colorno, to be played today, has been called off because a positive test on a Colorno's player who trained with the rest of the squad. It's the third time this match is postponed but there's no more room in the calendar. Yet, there's still the option to postpone the play-off (May 8, 15, 29), even until the end of June

Standing after fifteen rounds
PETRARCA 63 points (14 played)
ROVIGO 52 (15)
CALVISANO 46 (14)
VALORUGBY 45 (13)
MOGLIANO 34 (14)
VIADANA 30 (14)
FIAMME ORO 28 (14)
LYONS 27 (15)
COLORNO 13 (13)
LAZIO 4 (14)

Today, at 15 CET
Viadana v Mogliano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6u1BZurNco
Valorugby v Lazio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyBhd9fzPj8

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 05:11

carbonero wrote:You mentioned Old Glory twice as a precedent. It had nothing to do with what you are describing. Instead of saying "my bad, that wasn't the case, but my point still stands", you decided to give me this condescending history lesson. This forum is going to end up being your personal diary. I'm out.


Condescending, how?

You seemed to have a problem with a Union buying a team in another country and that's why I mentioned Old Glory. What I'm supposed to be sorry about? It is directly related to the discussion.

If the idea is to have each one saying his own truth and that's it we don't need a forum. Just create an old fashioned blog and post your thoughts. I'm interested in putting an idea and see if someone offers a strong solid counter argument that proves me wrong or expands the discussion, otherwise how can I change my mind?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 16:48

The draw between Viadana and Mogliano says that the Peroni Top10 semifinals' four are almost decided

Today
Valorugby v Lazio 69-14 (tries:11-2)
Viadana v Mogliano 16-16 (tries: 1-1)

Standing after fifteen/eighteen rounds
PETRARCA 63 points *
ROVIGO 52
VALORUGBY 50 *
CALVISANO 46 *
MOGLIANO 36
VIADANA 32
FIAMME ORO 28 *
LYONS 27
COLORNO 13 **
LAZIO 4

* matches to recover

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby carbonero » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 18:04

Sorry Canalina. You live in Reggio Emilia right? Has Valorugby they ever been in the playoffs?

victorsra wrote:If the idea is to have each one saying his own truth and that's it we don't need a forum. Just create an old fashioned blog and post your thoughts. I'm interested in putting an idea and see if someone offers a strong solid counter argument that proves me wrong or expands the discussion, otherwise how can I change my mind?

V: Rebranding is nothing new for Italy.
C: This is a foreign union having the majority stake, a rebrand in another language, foreign staff and majority of foreign players. The Zebre fans won’t relate to that team.
V: It is pretty much the same. It doesn’t matter if its a union or a private investor. It already happens in Old Glory
C: But the SRU has 30% of Old Glory. Not a controlling interest. They only have three Scottish players in the squad.
V: Dude, you haven’t thought this properly or forgot how international rugby works.

How is this offering a counterpoint? Every time you raise a concern, I’ll try to address it in the next post. When I raise a concern, you start babbling incoherently about something else.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 18:49

carbonero wrote:Sorry Canalina. You live in Reggio Emilia right? Has Valorugby they ever been in the playoffs?

Two years ago for the first time, but they were soundly beaten home and away in semifinal by Calvisano; last year they had great chances to qualify again for the semifnals bus as we all know the pandemic stopped all.
This year they are again in semifinal (they need just a point in one of the next three games to be sure) and the scenario is more uncertain: my shares for the title at the moment are Petrarca 35%, Calvisano 25%, Rovigo 20%, Valorugby 20%

The name of my city's club is a bit particular because the president of the club is a bit particular... He is a naive but genial owner of some factories working in the mechatronics field, he believes in the values of solidariety and in the values of rugby (in italian: "i valori del rugby" = Valorugby) and today, not for the first time, he was on the newspaper because he donated food packs to the families of our province in economical crisis
https://www.facebook.com/IlRestoDelCarl ... 3137637482

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby io.porcorosso » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 19:58

carbonero wrote:Sorry Canalina. You live in Reggio Emilia right? Has Valorugby they ever been in the playoffs?

victorsra wrote:If the idea is to have each one saying his own truth and that's it we don't need a forum. Just create an old fashioned blog and post your thoughts. I'm interested in putting an idea and see if someone offers a strong solid counter argument that proves me wrong or expands the discussion, otherwise how can I change my mind?

V: Rebranding is nothing new for Italy.
C: This is a foreign union having the majority stake, a rebrand in another language, foreign staff and majority of foreign players. The Zebre fans won’t relate to that team.
V: It is pretty much the same. It doesn’t matter if its a union or a private investor. It already happens in Old Glory
C: But the SRU has 30% of Old Glory. Not a controlling interest. They only have three Scottish players in the squad.
V: Dude, you haven’t thought this properly or forgot how international rugby works.

How is this offering a counterpoint? Every time you raise a concern, I’ll try to address it in the next post. When I raise a concern, you start babbling incoherently about something else.

May I suggest to give up with the idea of UAR buying a slice of slot of Zebre?

I mean it could happen, but I hardly believe in that.

There're more than one, real, option for Zebre:
1.Petrarca takes its place
2.Parma's business men with politics back them to grow with a real plan
3.They will stay as they are, with the minimum investment, as a development team

I'm not listing them cause I want some of them to be real, but because they are actually three hypothesis that are already on the table [1+3] and quite on the table [2].

So I think that there's no possibility to crossover with any UAR/FIR deal.

Cheers PR-WSM

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby RugbyToledo » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 20:31

When Italy entered in the 6 nations in 2000, half of the Squad was Argentina-born. The idea was to develope the national basis and "italianize" the team. It has proven to be a fail. Scotland instead has done the opposite way and has picked many foreign players, they have gone from fighting with Italy to do not be the last, to almost win 6 nations by a pair of points with Grande Slam. Italy must recognise the limita and incapabilities of it's homegrown basis, and adopt politics un concordance with this. The joint with UAR would optimal for this.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 20:56

victorsra wrote:4-5k is not the maths. Do you know a city with 10k people and a professional team?


Yes i do !
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footbal ... ambly_Oise

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 22:05

io.porcorosso wrote:
carbonero wrote:Sorry Canalina. You live in Reggio Emilia right? Has Valorugby they ever been in the playoffs?

victorsra wrote:If the idea is to have each one saying his own truth and that's it we don't need a forum. Just create an old fashioned blog and post your thoughts. I'm interested in putting an idea and see if someone offers a strong solid counter argument that proves me wrong or expands the discussion, otherwise how can I change my mind?

V: Rebranding is nothing new for Italy.
C: This is a foreign union having the majority stake, a rebrand in another language, foreign staff and majority of foreign players. The Zebre fans won’t relate to that team.
V: It is pretty much the same. It doesn’t matter if its a union or a private investor. It already happens in Old Glory
C: But the SRU has 30% of Old Glory. Not a controlling interest. They only have three Scottish players in the squad.
V: Dude, you haven’t thought this properly or forgot how international rugby works.

How is this offering a counterpoint? Every time you raise a concern, I’ll try to address it in the next post. When I raise a concern, you start babbling incoherently about something else.

May I suggest to give up with the idea of UAR buying a slice of slot of Zebre?

I mean it could happen, but I hardly believe in that.

There're more than one, real, option for Zebre:
1.Petrarca takes its place
2.Parma's business men with politics back them to grow with a real plan
3.They will stay as they are, with the minimum investment, as a development team

I'm not listing them cause I want some of them to be real, but because they are actually three hypothesis that are already on the table [1+3] and quite on the table [2].

So I think that there's no possibility to crossover with any UAR/FIR deal.

Cheers PR-WSM


I started the idea saying it is a crazy thought for fun and that I don't defend Argentina should go for this. I defend that UAR should give up from any transcontinental league project and focus on SLAR. I only brought up what I see would be the cheapest easiest project for them to enter PRO16, as UAR is insisting they want a big league. It is totaly unlikely to see an expansion to PRO18 and, if that happens, would have a big fee to pay, so, there you are. IMO Jaguares in a transcontinental league is a dead project, they must accept it.

What I said is that if I were FIR I would make such deal.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 22:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 22:09

vino_93 wrote:
victorsra wrote:4-5k is not the maths. Do you know a city with 10k people and a professional team?


Yes i do !
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footbal ... ambly_Oise


Soccer economy is totaly different. Money from transfers can pay projects in small cities. Or football agents renting teams to sell players and etc. We can list many other soccer clubs. I was talking about rugby's economy. Of course there are many tiny cities in France with nice clubs in Federale divisions, for exemple, but we are talking about a transcontinental top league.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Sat, 03 Apr 2021, 22:35

victorsra wrote:
vino_93 wrote:
victorsra wrote:4-5k is not the maths. Do you know a city with 10k people and a professional team?


Yes i do !
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footbal ... ambly_Oise


Soccer economy is totaly different. Money from transfers can pay projects in small cities. Or football agents renting teams to sell players and etc. We can list many other soccer clubs. I was talking about rugby's economy. Of course there are many tiny cities in France with nice clubs in Federale divisions, for exemple, but we are talking about a transcontinental top league.

Tyrosse has been in Pro D2 for 10 years. Their stadium is quasi as big as the number of inhabitants in the city :lol:

But that's only for the pleasure of sharing datas. Because I think your idea isn't that wrong. And anyway, might be more viable than paying fees to play in ProXX based in Spain...

But indeed, I doubt there would be an agreement. And I doubt the spanish project will exist one day too. There's no real alternative for Argentina now, except try to find a deal per all individual cases for more release time in the year than allowed by WR rules.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 05:27

[/quote]

I started the idea saying it is a crazy thought for fun and that I don't defend Argentina should go for this. I defend that UAR should give up from any transcontinental league project and focus on SLAR. I only brought up what I see would be the cheapest easiest project for them to enter PRO16, as UAR is insisting they want a big league. It is totaly unlikely to see an expansion to PRO18 and, if that happens, would have a big fee to pay, so, there you are. IMO Jaguares in a transcontinental league is a dead project, they must accept it.

What I said is that if I were FIR I would make such deal.[/quote]

Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

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