Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

The future of Italian Rugby

User avatar
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon, 21 Sep 2015, 15:38
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Bolaroid » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 10:27

Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.

Posts: 2880
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 10:52

What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 11:50

Bolaroid wrote:
Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.


It wouldn't be prohibitive to Georgia given they are bankrolled by Ivanishvili, but of course, the fact they would never see a financial return on the investment may itself be prohibitive, though if it ultimately leads to Georgia having a side in the QFs of an RWC, then that would of course, outweigh any financial losses.

There's a lot of money in Russia too, but they have their own professional structure. I agree it would be too much for the likes of Spain or Portugal.

In my view, this is definitely where the Pro 16 should be looking to expand - Georgia, Russia, Spain, Portugal - the Jaguares idea just isn't feasible without the side having fixtures in Argentina, which obviously can't happen.

In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.

Personally, I prefer the first option, with the addition of the best Zebre players a stronger Treviso could perform in a similar fashion to the Jaguares in Super Rugby whilst if Georgia are given the chance in any format, I firmly believe they will be competitive very quickly.

User avatar
Posts: 6628
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 13:11

Peroni Top10, the few left weekends. Petrarca (63) will very probably finish in first position and Rovigo (52) will be likely second, while the third place is still uncertain between Valorugby (50) and Calvisano (46). So according to my forecast the first leg semifinals will be in Reggio Emila and Calvisano and the second leg in Padova and Rovigo. The final game will be at home of the finalist team better placed in the regular season

XVI round – April 10
Valorugby v Fiamme Oro
Rovigo v Lyons
Lazio v Calvisano
Mogliano v Petrarca
Viadana v Colorno

XVII round – April 17
Lyons v Valorugby
Colorno v Rovigo
Petrarca v Calvisano
Viadana v Lazio
Fiamme Oro v Mogliano

XVIII round – April 24
Valorugby v Petrarca
Rovigo v Fiamme Oro
Calvisano v Lyons
Lazio v Colorno
Mogliano v Viadana

Recovers – May 1
Fiamme Oro v Colorno
Calvisano v Valorugby

To be recovered (when?)
Petrarca v Colorno

Semifinals: May 8, 15 (home&away)
4 v 1
3 v 2

Final: May 29

Posts: 9049
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 16:37

If Petrarca's position in the league is unchangeable, Petrarca vs Colorno might be cancelled I guess, just like what happened with Edinburgh vs Benetton in PRO14.

Posts: 798
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Raven » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 13:24

ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.

User avatar
Posts: 6628
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 17:14

Thirdultimate round of the Peroni Top10, this saturday. All games live on youtube, as always.
Viadana v Colorno (they are two little towns, one on the side and one on the other side of the big river Po) will be refereed by Clara Munarini. It's the first time ever that a woman wears the role of main referee in the italian national championship.

Kick-offs in CET

14.30 Rovigo v Lyons
15.00 Lazio v Calvisano
16.00 Mogliano v Petrarca
16.00 Valorugby v Fiamme Oro
16.00 Viadana v Colorno

Still no news about Ramiro Finco, it must have been an heavy cerebral problem

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 23:23

Raven wrote:
ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.


In an ideal world where you provide an equitable pathway for all and rugby is a meritocracy - we can but dream.

Italy have two franchises but don't have the talent to support two competitive teams at that level - you can cry all you want about how they deserve X and Y but the results speak for themselves.

Rugby needs to open up properly and has to move fast, the success of Georgia needs to be embraced and I think the Pro 14/16 is a natural fit - or where do you suggest a nascent Georgian professional rugby franchise go? The Didi 10 is only semi-pro so it's not clear who you are advocating entering the Challenge Cup, the composite teams like the Bucharest Wolves etc. also don't work so you can't be championing a similar model for Georgia.

As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

In an ideal world, the Italian teams would never have joined the Pro 14 at all, and worked hard at building their own league. I do agree that the whole Pro league is an abomination - it only makes sense as a Celtic League with the 10 Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams. By joining the Pro 14/16 the Italians have poured good money after bad and have seen no improvement in performance levels either in the Pro 14 or their National Team.

Posts: 95
Joined: Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 04:38
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 03:25

Looks like this is an argument which wont go away quickly.

https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2021 ... 5mn-laxTuc

Although this time , there was an interesting analogy drawn against the improvement by Portugal. And the question is , ignoring the finances and just focussing on the rugby , would Italian rugby improve by being relegated and allowing the younger , inexperienced players play in the REC and win matches and develop that way. Earn their way back into the 6 Nations and start winning games again in the 6N

Posts: 9049
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 16:40

Rebus wrote:Looks like this is an argument which wont go away quickly.

https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2021 ... 5mn-laxTuc

Although this time , there was an interesting analogy drawn against the improvement by Portugal. And the question is , ignoring the finances and just focussing on the rugby , would Italian rugby improve by being relegated and allowing the younger , inexperienced players play in the REC and win matches and develop that way. Earn their way back into the 6 Nations and start winning games again in the 6N


This article can't be serious. The guy compares Georgia wins in a row in the REC with Italy's defeats against T1s. This is not a reasonable comparison. And he talks about money being the problem, when it is not exactly "money". It is ownership. Then, he starts a naive discussion about how to compensate Italy.

He could have dedicated his analysis to how the 6N Ltd should create its own 2nd division (to make a promotion-relegation only natural) or about it becoming 7N or 8N. It would have been a much better discussion.

Posts: 798
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Raven » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 18:39

ScottishPuma wrote:
Spoiler:
Raven wrote:
ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.

In an ideal world where you provide an equitable pathway for all and rugby is a meritocracy - we can but dream.

Italy have two franchises but don't have the talent to support two competitive teams at that level - you can cry all you want about how they deserve X and Y but the results speak for themselves.


Nah, I'm certainly not crying, but I am completely against the thought of these decisions being of one OR the other. We all agree that we want more competitive teams, but that doesn't have to come to the expense of other nations that at one point were doing well enough to gain consideration.

ScottishPuma wrote:Rugby needs to open up properly and has to move fast, the success of Georgia needs to be embraced and I think the Pro 14/16 is a natural fit - or where do you suggest a nascent Georgian professional rugby franchise go? The Didi 10 is only semi-pro so it's not clear who you are advocating entering the Challenge Cup, the composite teams like the Bucharest Wolves etc. also don't work so you can't be championing a similar model for Georgia.


I quoted your "ideal world" line cause you just brought up an opinion, not considering how it may affect the Italian side of things, meaning it is not an "ideal world" for everybody. Of course we have to embrace Georgia's success -that has dropped a bit now if you ask me, but that's another story- but I don't think the solution is as snappy as replacing an Italian franchise with an Argentine merger cause they were left with no ELITE competition, or a Georgian side "just because" they top the REC on consecutive occasions. Both Bennetton and Zebre may not do great at the PRO14 but have had some good runs for their money in European Cup games.
As I said before, maybe I didn't stress it enough, it would be best if the European Cups had more T2 involvement, not just keep adding teams to the initial Celtic League to transform it eventually into a PRO18. If Russia keep investing in their league, it may take some time, but eventually they might add some flair to a cup competition, there's certainly something brewing over there with their intention to host a RWC, their recent 2nd participation in the world stage, and the mild incipient success of their HPCs. Romania and Georgia have semi pro leagues as you point out, but a domestic "franchise" model like the one Jaguares had in Super Rugby may be their way to start although I am certainly not convinced that it's the best solution in the long run -the Bucaresti Wolves and Olympics in Spain are examples of that. We can enter a debate about whether the timing for those projects may have been to soon, considering Rugby is a lot more professional now...

Over a beer, with pen and paper we can probably draw a million possibilities, I personally think that what would really help would be to have a 3rd European Cup but not as 'demeaning' like the Continental Shield was or the one Russia is proposing. It's got to be something more relevant and with a bit of more following. Say as an example, first 5 of the 3 big leagues go to the Champions Cup, 6th to 10/11th go the Challenge Cup and the rest (2 from Prem, 3 from Top14 and 3 from PRO14) play with other European teams, ie: 2 Russian, 1 Georgian, 1 Romanian, 1 BE/NED, 1 POR/SPA (I was REALLY looking forward to see Heidelberg in Europe for instance... :( ) Teams winning the 2nd or 3rd Cup would enable the team to climb the ladder for the following season.
Another example would be to work out a sort of play off rounds before the group stages, with the involvement of T2 teams, again, the idea is not to replace anybody but to add more teams in European Competitions, not Leagues.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't just scrap any Italian team, I'd try to find a way to make other teams reach AT LEAST their standard.

ScottishPuma wrote:As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

Jaguares did show progression, indeed, but the National Team didn't reflect that progression.

ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, the Italian teams would never have joined the Pro 14 at all, and worked hard at building their own league. I do agree that the whole Pro league is an abomination - it only makes sense as a Celtic League with the 10 Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams. By joining the Pro 14/16 the Italians have poured good money after bad and have seen no improvement in performance levels either in the Pro 14 or their National Team.

Maybe you are right, obviously there's more reasons behind their addition to the Celtic League besides the competitiveness of their teams. However it's done now and there should be a way to allow more teams to compete without beheading Italy and leave them with nothing.

Posts: 107
Joined: Sun, 05 Feb 2017, 15:38
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 16:17

In an ideal world, the Celtic League would join with the English Premiership to make a British & Irish League.

In an ideal world the 2 Italian teams would join the Top14 and Pro D2 and maybe a team from Spain to create a Continental league.

In an ideal world the SA teams would run the Currie Cup like SRAu and SRAo with a champions league style combined with Top league in Japan

User avatar
Posts: 6628
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 18:17

First, partially positive notes about Ramiro Finco's rehabilitation

Medical bulletin
Our player and friend Ramiro Finco hospitalized at the Gemelli Polyclinic in Rome since March 14, continues the path of improvement with small signs every day.
The mobility of the right side gives excellent reactions, Rama follows orders but still does not react consistently to external stimuli.
The picture is slowly improving therefore he has been transferred from the intensive care unit to the neurosurgery department of the Gemelli.
His parents are always by his side.
A big thank you from all of us goes to the Gemelli Medical staff who are treating him.
Come on Rama, we are all with you

https://www.facebook.com/rugbyviadana19 ... 0257939532

Tomorrow's Top10 live links
14.30 Rovigo-Lyons www.youtube.com/watch?v=kss64Kp1d7g
15.00 Lazio-Calvisano www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rnes8F6aM
16.00 Valorugby-Fiamme Oro www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2QliOTHAUQ
16.00 Viadana-Lyons www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA7U1or7moc
16.00 Mogliano-Petrarca www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q96s0mT9ayw

Posts: 500
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sat, 10 Apr 2021, 00:56

ScottishPuma wrote:
Bolaroid wrote:
Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.


It wouldn't be prohibitive to Georgia given they are bankrolled by Ivanishvili, but of course, the fact they would never see a financial return on the investment may itself be prohibitive, though if it ultimately leads to Georgia having a side in the QFs of an RWC, then that would of course, outweigh any financial losses.

There's a lot of money in Russia too, but they have their own professional structure. I agree it would be too much for the likes of Spain or Portugal.

In my view, this is definitely where the Pro 16 should be looking to expand - Georgia, Russia, Spain, Portugal - the Jaguares idea just isn't feasible without the side having fixtures in Argentina, which obviously can't happen.

In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.

Personally, I prefer the first option, with the addition of the best Zebre players a stronger Treviso could perform in a similar fashion to the Jaguares in Super Rugby whilst if Georgia are given the chance in any format, I firmly believe they will be competitive very quickly.


I'm fairly unconvinced that a few sides getting whipped in the ProWhatever is a better option than growing the domestic Championship. Certainly in Russia there is enough political power to go it alone, given the strength of top tier Iberian sides, I'd argue the same for them. The only nations I can see I making sense for are Germany (if Mr Peter Wild agrees to fund £5m+/yr for a decade) and Poland/Romania if a billionaire comes forward.

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 12:28

Nah, I'm certainly not crying, but I am completely against the thought of these decisions being of one OR the other. We all agree that we want more competitive teams, but that doesn't have to come to the expense of other nations that at one point were doing well enough to gain consideration.


I definitely agree, but surely at some point we need to see improvement from the two Italian teams? And if not, then what, allow the situation to continue interminably? I think one Italian franchise would not necessarily be a step backwards, especially if that franchise was much more competitive in a similar vein to the Jaguares in Super Rugby. Also, it could strengthen their domestic league which is arguably where they should have focussed their attention before they entered the Pro Whatever. If rugby is going to grow in popularity in Italy, then the public needs to see some victories and fast - one highly competitive franchise performing well and reaching knockout phases of tournaments is better than two teams who consistently fail to achieve. Then if Italy is producing a surplus of high quality players, too many for the one franchise, then would be the time to think about bringing in a second.

Of course we have to embrace Georgia's success -that has dropped a bit now if you ask me, but that's another story- but I don't think the solution is as snappy as replacing an Italian franchise with an Argentine merger cause they were left with no ELITE competition, or a Georgian side "just because" they top the REC on consecutive occasions. Both Bennetton and Zebre may not do great at the PRO14 but have had some good runs for their money in European Cup games.

Not sure I agree here, I think Georgia would have turned out exactly the same results in Italy's pool at the RWC whilst I think were the roles reversed and Italy in Georgia's group they would also have finished 4th thus forcing them to qualify (which would have been fantastic as we'd finally get to see Italy play against the other European sides to see what their respective levels are). In short, I don't think Georgia have regressed, just going through a transitional period with changeover of players and coaching staff - take a look at the success of their U-20s, they are building very nicely towards 2023.

As I said before, maybe I didn't stress it enough, it would be best if the European Cups had more T2 involvement, not just keep adding teams to the initial Celtic League to transform it eventually into a PRO18. If Russia keep investing in their league, it may take some time, but eventually they might add some flair to a cup competition, there's certainly something brewing over there with their intention to host a RWC, their recent 2nd participation in the world stage, and the mild incipient success of their HPCs. Romania and Georgia have semi pro leagues as you point out, but a domestic "franchise" model like the one Jaguares had in Super Rugby may be their way to start although I am certainly not convinced that it's the best solution in the long run -the Bucaresti Wolves and Olympics in Spain are examples of that. We can enter a debate about whether the timing for those projects may have been to soon, considering Rugby is a lot more professional now...


Mostly agree, but given Italy has chosen this route ahead of what was a much stronger domestic league than any of the others, it really means that presently it is also the best, and certainly the quickest, route for nations like Georgia, Spain or Portugal. I think Russia is the only nation with enough money in the domestic league to go it alone.

Over a beer, with pen and paper we can probably draw a million possibilities, I personally think that what would really help would be to have a 3rd European Cup but not as 'demeaning' like the Continental Shield was or the one Russia is proposing. It's got to be something more relevant and with a bit of more following. Say as an example, first 5 of the 3 big leagues go to the Champions Cup, 6th to 10/11th go the Challenge Cup and the rest (2 from Prem, 3 from Top14 and 3 from PRO14) play with other European teams, ie: 2 Russian, 1 Georgian, 1 Romanian, 1 BE/NED, 1 POR/SPA (I was REALLY looking forward to see Heidelberg in Europe for instance... :( ) Teams winning the 2nd or 3rd Cup would enable the team to climb the ladder for the following season.
Another example would be to work out a sort of play off rounds before the group stages, with the involvement of T2 teams, again, the idea is not to replace anybody but to add more teams in European Competitions, not Leagues.


Plenty of different possibilities yes, and you weren't the only one disappointed not to see Heidelberg in Europe. But it just seems that the EPCR have no desire to expand the game outwith the 6N - the treatment of the respective teams from Romania, Russia, Spain and Germany have been discussed a lot on here and has been worse than appalling. But I would like to see an expanded Challenge Cup with the champions from Russia, Georgia, Romania, Spain and perhaps Portugal or Germany involved in addition to the Eccellenza Champions - I think Rugby Europe and the EPCR need to form closer ties to ensure something along the lines of one our suggestions happen.

ScottishPuma wrote:As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

Jaguares did show progression, indeed, but the National Team didn't reflect that progression.


Their were other factors at play, namely Ledesma's refusal to pick non-Jaguares - note what happened when he abandoned that policy, their most successful RC campaign ever and a maiden victory against the ABs. Also note, that they were within an incorrect refereeing decision against France of making the QFs in Japan, despite Ledesma's poor selection policy.

Previous

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 10 guests