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Romanian Rugby

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Stefan Petrescu » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 20:56

Best solution is to keep the professional league (but the quality of the other 3 teams below Baia Mare, Timisoara and Steaua has to improve significantly) and to then make a representative side of the best players in the league within a certain season (Bucuresti Wolves is a perfect example of something with potential to be successful) that compete only in the European Challenge Cup, and in the future if it its good, then why not have it in the Pro 14, especially since Italy has two teams.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 21:07

Isn't it more logical to basicaly have a semi professional league? Or the difference would be too big?

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 05:52

Stefan Petrescu wrote:Best solution is to keep the professional league (but the quality of the other 3 teams below Baia Mare, Timisoara and Steaua has to improve significantly) and to then make a representative side of the best players in the league within a certain season (Bucuresti Wolves is a perfect example of something with potential to be successful) that compete only in the European Challenge Cup, and in the future if it its good, then why not have it in the Pro 14, especially since Italy has two teams.


Bucuresti Wolves should play in the European Challenge Cup every year to challenge the top domestic players and prepare them for international rugby.

The challenge is how to get the 2 weakest Superliga teams up to a professional standard? I wonder, are there any tier 2 / 3 teams without a high standard of domestic rugby who would sponsor some of their players to play professional rugby in Romania? Or would World Rugby be prepared to fund something like that? I remember Canada once put a load of players in RGC in North Wales to play in the Welsh Premiership.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 14:31

The logical thing is, obviously, spots in the Challenge Cup, but here lies the problem. T2 clubs are always thrashed, which is logical to happen. But this means it is a big waste of money for those T2 clubs to be there in a short term. And those are clubs that struggle with limited budgets. For T1 clubs, it is also unappealing. That's why we are in such situation: T2 clubs in Challenge Cup are not viable, for both sides. It would only change if EPCR payed the T2 clubs costs, as a long term investment. But rugby is short-termist - and now poor.

Instead of having club 7s, snow rugby and beach rugby, Rugby Europe should have a short clubs competition that starts at least awarding the "European" title. Something small, with like 4 or 8 clubs, playoffs, like it had in the 1960s, but with a strong name (Like "European Super Cup", "Rugby Europe Champions Trophy", something not downing like "Continental Shield"). Now, the "European Title" could mean something.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 14:54

victorsra wrote:The logical thing is, obviously, spots in the Challenge Cup, but here lies the problem. T2 clubs are always thrashed, which is logical to happen. But this means it is a big waste of money for those T2 clubs to be there in a short term. And those are clubs that struggle with limited budgets. For T1 clubs, it is also unappealing. That's why we are in such situation: T2 clubs in Challenge Cup are not viable, for both sides. It would only change if EPCR payed the T2 clubs costs, as a long term investment. But rugby is short-termist - and now poor.

Instead of having club 7s, snow rugby and beach rugby, Rugby Europe should have a short clubs competition that starts at least awarding the "European" title. Something small, with like 4 or 8 clubs, playoffs, like it had in the 1960s, but with a strong name (Like "European Super Cup", "Rugby Europe Champions Trophy", something not downing like "Continental Shield"). Now, the "European Title" could mean something.


Enisei STM were not thrashed. Their average score was 45-12, which is a not close but is not a scoreline that I would describe as a waste of time for both teams. It is close enough that the tier 2 team benefits from the experience. 70-0 thrashings, yes I would agree that no one benefits, but that isn't what's happening. Is it a waste of money? I would say not, because if the team can afford it then that is something they would choose to do. If they want to do it but can't afford it then that is not the same as a waste of money. Unless you think investing in tier 2 rugby is a waste of money.
If competing in the European Challenge Cup is something the Krasnoyarsk teams and Bucuresti Wolves want to do, but they are unable to afford to do it, then European rugby as a whole needs to look at how that can be facilitated.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 15:55

The Siberians are exceptions, they don't change the argument, honestly.

It is a waste of money, some clubs don't want to play because they can't afford. They only lose money.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 16:18

victorsra wrote:The Siberians are exceptions, they don't change the argument, honestly.

It is a waste of money, some clubs don't want to play because they can't afford. They only lose money.


Most rugby teams lose money.

I have never been skiing because I can't afford it. Do I think skiing is a waste of money? No, I just can't afford it. If I could afford it I would do it. Maybe your English language skills are letting you down.

Can't afford does not equal waste of money. Can't afford equals lack of money.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 16:25

I can see no reason why a Bucuresti Wolves team could not be competitive in the European Challenge Cup. Let's compare them to a Welsh Pro 14 team. Each Welsh Pro 14 team sits above 2 or 3 semi pro Welsh Premiership clubs. The Bucuresti Wolves would have the best players from the CEC Bank Superliga available and be coached by the national team coaches. I am not saying they would necessarily win any games but should be able to have a go. The other teams would not be fielding their strongest teams.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 16:26

It is different when you don't attract fans, don't have proper broadcast contracts and live in the limit of professionalism, depending on public money.


Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Can't afford does not equal waste of money. Can't afford equals lack of money.


Means both. If you can't afford it is because it generates no money. You only have costs.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 17:01

victorsra wrote:It is different when you don't attract fans, don't have proper broadcast contracts and live in the limit of professionalism, depending on public money.


Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Can't afford does not equal waste of money. Can't afford equals lack of money.


Means both. If you can't afford it is because it generates no money. You only have costs.


Romanian rugby doesn't generate any money. But now they have a nice new national stadium, maybe the Oaks and the Bucuresti Wolves can start generating money to cover travel costs. Or maybe more of the Romanian/Bucharest professional sports budget can be directed towards rugby.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 17:50

Yes, who pays the Wolves?

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby dans » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 18:24

Ok with a Bucharest Wolves to play European Challenge Cup as a Romanian pro team...assuming money are found (no ideea where from!)

What i don't get is, why should they have the right to play instead of teams like RC Batumi or Locomotive, Vrac or SilverStorm, Calvisano or Rovigo, Enisei or KrasnyYar, SC 1880 Frankfurt or Heidelberg, Agronomia or Baia Mare or SCM Timisoara?
Why should they get invited?...I also assume it would only be considered, if all the othe teams above say NO... AND Buchares Wolves they pay the participation money...That's not going to happen...!:)

An European Club Rugby Trophy made with the league winners in the 6 countries it's most natural way to go forward in club rugby in Europe.
But none of the teams can afford it.
It needs Rugby Europe to lead, find financial mechanisms / sponsors / broadcasting deals etc to make it possible. And the guys there don't have the knowledge or power or resources.
All of that is in EPRC... I never understood why they call themselves European Professional Club Rugby.?..why not Britsh & French Professional Rugby Club...maybe because they got the 2 Italian clubs!

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 18:29

I think first we need a proper 3rd Euro competition, affordable and with real value for fans. Start small to build a proper environment. The Continental Shield had good intentions but was a mess. Come on, 2 clubs entering directly in the semifinals. Three years without a champion! Not even a proper website. It was like a recipe of how to not do a competition. We only praised because it was something. A 3rd competition free from the Challenge Cup is what is needed right now IMO.

Exciting name: Rugby Europe Champions Trophy, or Rugby Europe Super Cup, or anything in this area;

Format: in the first year, start small, like playoffs-only. Start regionalized (RUS vs GEO, ROM vs ITA, SPA vs POR, GER vs BEL/NED, something like this)

Do it for a couple of years, make T2 people care and finaly negociate access to the Challenge Cup in for the champions, but in better terms, with at least Rugby Europe becoming a EPCR stakeholder or something.
Last edited by victorsra on Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 27 Sep 2020, 18:50

Victor this is a good idea. I like this.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 08:52

If EPCR would accept a Bucharest franchise as Wolves, believe me, private money will be found. I think this is the main FRR project for next years. There is a very nice stadium, there will be sponsorship and good players to make a good team. Add to this Bucharest could be very entertaining for a drinking session week-end :D

Wolves' scores in Challenge Cup in the past were decent, scoring an occasional win here and there, I think could be better in time.

However, Wolves wouldn't make sense in a 3rd tier competition. Timisoara had a nice try going themselves as club for Challenge Cup but I think it was way too soon for them, but for a 3rd tier European Cup and of the top 3 Romanian clubs can compete with no fuss.

Also @Chester, I didn't meant only covid-19 when I mentioned also political reasons against a joint Romanian-Russian rugby league, but also to relations between states and the usual issues we had with Russian administration (refusing visas for stupid reasons, not providing training pitch, bad meals etc.). Normally a Romanian would visit Moscow only if paid to do this, otherwise for us there's is nothing there to see.

I'd rather like to see a common Romanian-Georgian league. Last year, before covid, Romanian tourists become more and more interested in Georgia (mainly ski and wine tours but also other stuff was advertised) and it was obvious the tourism will grow also bringing regular flights. I think this trend will resume eventually and on the long run, a Romanian-Georgian competition is much more likely, with chances to further integrate Ukrainian or Moldovan sides or even Russian ones should they be based around Black Sea.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 13:48

Spending how much in each travel to Georgia? It looks clear that is not viable or logical.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 18:27

victorsra wrote:Spending how much in each travel to Georgia? It looks clear that is not viable or logical.


Less than going in Siberia or Moscow.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 19:17

Let's make a difference between a league and a cup. An Eastern European Cup or a 3rd European Cup (specialy with regionalized groups) means few matches. A league, to be a league, means months in a row, many matches (many travels). So, better than Russia? Of course, if we are talking about a proper league, but definitly not good anyway, as would be = raising costs a lot (compared to the national league), with little-to-none return. But not better than like 1 match in a continental semifinal IF the competition itself has meaning, importance, purpose (something different from that Continental Shield without a champion).

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 21:47

The difficulty with Romania is that there are no neighbouting countries to increase the size and strength of the league. Also , the clubs want to have representation in Europe , not a select team.
A Pro League team would be the best option, run on a low budget to for the Romanians to play in and then to possible look to have a second team after that. Getting the players playing at a pro level on a weekly basis and building from their would be ideal for Romania.
Would love to see them getting the team back to the level they had in the 1970's to early 90's
But the gulf is too big and it needs to be baby steps and having 1 or 2 pro league clubs would help. The teams that play domestically could play in a 3rd Euro competition.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby amz » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 11:52

victorsra wrote:Let's make a difference between a league and a cup. An Eastern European Cup or a 3rd European Cup (specialy with regionalized groups) means few matches. A league, to be a league, means months in a row, many matches (many travels). So, better than Russia? Of course, if we are talking about a proper league, but definitly not good anyway, as would be = raising costs a lot (compared to the national league), with little-to-none return. But not better than like 1 match in a continental semifinal IF the competition itself has meaning, importance, purpose (something different from that Continental Shield without a champion).


You seem to stubbornly lecture me about the situation in Romania and you seem to know better than me what is needed. Very funny

That 3rd European cup (regionalized as you say) with Russian teams and whoever wanted to joined would have only worked if the flights were to be sponsored by Aeroflot (or other sponsors) otherwise no Romanian club would have been interested, nor FRR. It seems this project is on hold and I don't wonder why, Russians have a history of promise followed by lack of delivery.

That's why I said the only realistic alternative to have an international competition in this area, in the absence of the above, is a league around Black Sea. But this on median term, if the economy and economical collaboration between Romania and Georgia. Russian teams, unless based around Black Sea, won't be a wanted travel destination in Romania, at all.

Other interesting project for Romania would be a franchise in Challenge Cup which may obtain sponsorship and have a nice stadium.

Finally, having a small pro league of 6 to 8 teams it's good, after all this type of league bring good performance in 2011-2018 period and many T2 teams were envious observing that it raised the level of Oaks visibly.

That's it, I think you have no idea what are the practical conditions here and it's just lame to continue suggest things that here we know will never happen. Don't underestimate the dislike of Russia here.

Rebus wrote:The difficulty with Romania is that there are no neighbouting countries to increase the size and strength of the league. Also , the clubs want to have representation in Europe , not a select team.
A Pro League team would be the best option, run on a low budget to for the Romanians to play in and then to possible look to have a second team after that. Getting the players playing at a pro level on a weekly basis and building from their would be ideal for Romania.
Would love to see them getting the team back to the level they had in the 1970's to early 90's
But the gulf is too big and it needs to be baby steps and having 1 or 2 pro league clubs would help. The teams that play domestically could play in a 3rd Euro competition.


Pretty much this but with the specification that clubs don't want anymore representation in Europe, as Timisoara wanted.

So far no club have the means to do that and it appears to be an informal agreement that a select team like Wolves, now with a new stadium, could be a better alternative at least at this moment.

However, I think that is more sustainable to start with a Challenge Cup team.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 12:22

amz All reasonable points. But the question asked by another Romanian in this thread (dans) is why would Bucuresti Wolves get a place in the European Challenge Cup? Why not a team from Spain or Georgia? To that I would answer that it is to Romania's credit that they run a professional league and have invested in a new stadium. And their national team consists mostly of domestic players so they could really do with the level of competition available in the European Challenge Cup that they won't get it in their club rugby. Also Romania has a precedent. Other countries don't have an equivalent representative side. In my opinion Bucuresti Wolves should be in the European Challenge Cup.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 13:58

Chester-Donnelly wrote:amz All reasonable points. But the question asked by another Romanian in this thread (dans) is why would Bucuresti Wolves get a place in the European Challenge Cup? Why not a team from Spain or Georgia? To that I would answer that it is to Romania's credit that they run a professional league and have invested in a new stadium. And their national team consists mostly of domestic players so they could really do with the level of competition available in the European Challenge Cup that they won't get it in their club rugby.


You are falling again for the cast system claim, that somebody needs to have proven to be "worthy" somehow to play in something, while not giving opportunities or definition how somebody actually becomes "worthy". The Challenge Cup should have clear ways how to take part if you are not in the cartel and that's the problem. If it is a Romanian team that fullfils set-up rules then that's great as well. But we need finally rules if they realize, that rugby needs to grow to remain pro in its status-quo.

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Also Romania has a precedent. Other countries don't have an equivalent representative side. In my opinion Bucuresti Wolves should be in the European Challenge Cup.

Don't know too much about your Anglican law system, but the precedent seems to be set already from the start with Irish, Scottish and Wales teams taking part. With I&W-teams actually being regions => representative teams.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 14:36

Precedent is a pretty fundamental part of our common law system. Romania had a team called Bucuresti Wolves in the European Challenge Cup, therefore if they want to have that again they should.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby amz » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 14:37

@Chester-Donnelly: Because while it was in Challenge Cup, there were no logistical hiccups, the team didn't announced will sign up than retire like others did and occasionally had good results. I don't mind Spain or Georgian teams to apply for Challenge Cup but as far as I know none have this intention. It's not about a Romanian team participating instead of a Spanish or Georgian one but to my knowledge, no such intention was seriously considered by the respective Unions and the clubs from respective countries are quite weak. So I don't see this antagonistically, I am merely speaking about what FRR can realistically do now.

There were some experiments with select sides from Portugal and a club from Spain but the only project outside 6N which lasted in Challenge Cup was Romanian Wolves and it was kicked out, otherwise it would have been there as well.

Wolves would field a mostly Romanian side, would have a new stadium, sponsors for this franchise, Bucharest is a fun and easily reachable destination and the record of participation was above the performances of Italian clubs (not the franchises) and other participants from among T2 nations (Portuguese, Spanish sides). The only comparable performance is recent participation of Russian clubs but as opposed to Romanian participation, on a much shorter period of time.

Also I don't get why other countries should have a representative side? Is their choice what they do.

There are plenty of regional franchises which are representative sides in Celtic nations so I don't see where the problem is. Do you want a participant that can thick the standards or you want only clubs, ignoring that others can field franchises? I think is important for rugby outside 6N to show a pathway and some lesser 6N clubs/franchises might don't wanna participate into Challenge cup seriously being focused on other objectives e.g. avoiding relegation from domestic competition so their place could be taken by other clubs.
Last edited by amz on Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 14:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Romanian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 14:39

amz wrote:
victorsra wrote:Let's make a difference between a league and a cup. An Eastern European Cup or a 3rd European Cup (specialy with regionalized groups) means few matches. A league, to be a league, means months in a row, many matches (many travels). So, better than Russia? Of course, if we are talking about a proper league, but definitly not good anyway, as would be = raising costs a lot (compared to the national league), with little-to-none return. But not better than like 1 match in a continental semifinal IF the competition itself has meaning, importance, purpose (something different from that Continental Shield without a champion).


You seem to stubbornly lecture me about the situation in Romania and you seem to know better than me what is needed. Very funny

That 3rd European cup (regionalized as you say) with Russian teams and whoever wanted to joined would have only worked if the flights were to be sponsored by Aeroflot (or other sponsors) otherwise no Romanian club would have been interested, nor FRR. It seems this project is on hold and I don't wonder why, Russians have a history of promise followed by lack of delivery.

That's why I said the only realistic alternative to have an international competition in this area, in the absence of the above, is a league around Black Sea. But this on median term, if the economy and economical collaboration between Romania and Georgia. Russian teams, unless based around Black Sea, won't be a wanted travel destination in Romania, at all.

Other interesting project for Romania would be a franchise in Challenge Cup which may obtain sponsorship and have a nice stadium.

Finally, having a small pro league of 6 to 8 teams it's good, after all this type of league bring good performance in 2011-2018 period and many T2 teams were envious observing that it raised the level of Oaks visibly.

That's it, I think you have no idea what are the practical conditions here and it's just lame to continue suggest things that here we know will never happen. Don't underestimate the dislike of Russia here.

Rebus wrote:The difficulty with Romania is that there are no neighbouting countries to increase the size and strength of the league. Also , the clubs want to have representation in Europe , not a select team.
A Pro League team would be the best option, run on a low budget to for the Romanians to play in and then to possible look to have a second team after that. Getting the players playing at a pro level on a weekly basis and building from their would be ideal for Romania.
Would love to see them getting the team back to the level they had in the 1970's to early 90's
But the gulf is too big and it needs to be baby steps and having 1 or 2 pro league clubs would help. The teams that play domestically could play in a 3rd Euro competition.


Pretty much this but with the specification that clubs don't want anymore representation in Europe, as Timisoara wanted.

So far no club have the means to do that and it appears to be an informal agreement that a select team like Wolves, now with a new stadium, could be a better alternative at least at this moment.

However, I think that is more sustainable to start with a Challenge Cup team.


It is not my fault you don't understand what I read and assume stuff.

First, I'm talking about Rugby Europe stepping up and creating its own competition with national champions. There is no "regionalized" competition. I said a simple knock-out cup and to reduce travels i suggested it to start with closer clubs facing each other. Which is quite simple and logic. I'm not inventing anything, just trying to see a way forward for the Continental Shield, bringing up a model that in fact existed during FIRA's amateur era (completely differenct contexts, obvioulsy).

What I said is that "Leagues" mean a lot of more investment, that's another pretty obvious (far from a lecture). With this said, I'm actualy defending each country having its own amateur/semi pro/professional league, whatever suits better in each country, in each context. But the Georgian-Romania league is old talk and the fact it never took off just shows there is little viability. I'm not lecturing anyone about Romania if I say a national Romanian league is of course the best way, because other Romanian posters say this. I'm only believing in Romanian/Georgian posters, not lecturing them. You only need to let our Pichot discussion behind ;)

And who the fuck is talking about Russia? I'm talking about Rugby Europe. There you are why you believe I'm lecturing anyone, as you basicaly conclude the absolute wrong thing from what I said. If you ever realy read me, you'd know I take geopolitics ALWAYS in account, which is pretty clear even here. And that's why my focus here is on Rugby Europe, the "neutral" actor.

My point is Rugby Europe needs to step up creating its own competition. The more rugby relies on inter-unions alliances, the less viable anything properly continental for club rugby will be. It is not about Russia promising or delivering anything. It is about Rugby Europe itself building a cup.I'm not proposing any sort of lunatic massiive cup with regional groups or anything. Just a small cup to start with. Who would pay for such minimalistic approach? That's exactly up to Rugby Europe starting building competitons with meaning that attract private partners! Otherwise, rugby will always depend on any 6N-EPCR-like modus operandi. What's lame about defending protagonism to the continental federation?

The national franchise in Challenge Cup is always an open possiibility, I haven't talked about it. But I honestly think it is a dead idea. As soon as the Premiership expands itself to 13 clubs (and it is likely it will happen soon), there will be just 1 spot available for T2s/Italian league I don't think EPCR will expand again to 24 clubs in any of its tournaments (the 2020-21 season is a pandemics exception), because EPCR was born with the idea of reducing to 20 clubs as one of its flags. They will probably keep a 40-teams system, 20 teams in each, and Romania needs much more than a stadium to persuade them. It seems likely the last remaining spot is basicaly awarded to whoever pays more for it.

Looks like a realy far from lecturing-the-locals-about-their-own-country-approach if you read until the end, unless you finish it with bad mood.
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

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