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Small news

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Re: Small news

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 20:33

August 24, should be the 197th anniversary of the William Webb Ellis episode, according to some sites

SOV sources usually had it on April 7 -- I'm not sure about that date's origin

They also claimed it happened on Waterloo # anniversary -- but the battle proper was fought on 18 June 1815

So, everything connected with WWE is a BIG MESS

:::

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 21:22

I think they are all arbitrary dates. I've never read that the one only "ear-witness" (not eye-witness) of the WW Ellis episode mentioned a precise day. If I recall correctly he was not even sure about the precise year

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Re: Small news

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 26 Aug 2020, 06:40

So, let's erase this useless rubbish from rugby annals -- forget it

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 07:16

Webb Ellis is just a founding myth. Cool story to joke about, but no historical fundaments. Rugby was born as a sport in 1845. Forget 1823.
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Re: Small news

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 08:04

victorsra wrote:Webb Ellis is just a founding myth. Cool story to joke about, but no historical fundaments. Rugby was born as a sport in 1845. Forget 1823.


This. Also it sucks that the Webb Ellis story actually gives soccer a chance to say that they are the "real" football. If World Rugby was better managed, they would try to get rid of that story.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 08:36

We already talked about that. It is not without historical bases. There was a man, somewhen toward the end of XIX century, who narrated to have entered in the Rugby School two years after that episode, and that someone described it to him naming William Webb Ellis as the protagonist.
Is that a proof that rugby was born in that exact day? No, it would be excessive to say so and certainly World Rugby uses it as a founding myth, as Victorsra says.
But we should ignore that testimony? I'd say certainly not! It's the closest testimony we have about the first steps of rugby, it's a precious one and I can't see why we should dismiss it as "rubbish"

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Re: Small news

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 09:27

Canalina wrote:We already talked about that. It is not without historical bases. There was a man, somewhen toward the end of XIX century, who narrated to have entered in the Rugby School two years after that episode, and that someone described it to him naming William Webb Ellis as the protagonist.
Is that a proof that rugby was born in that exact day? No, it would be excessive to say so and certainly World Rugby uses it as a founding myth, as Victorsra says.
But we should ignore that testimony? I'd say certainly not! It's the closest testimony we have about the first steps of rugby, it's a precious one and I can't see why we should dismiss it as "rubbish"


It is rubbish, created as a testimony against professionalism, deminishing the efforts of lower born rugby schoolmasters who most probably invented it to get the school rebellions of posh pupils down, and it hurts rugby until today.
http://www.tony-collins.org/rugbyreload ... m-the-dead

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... -world-cup

Also listen to this podcast episode
https://tony-collins.squarespace.com/ru ... ast-launch
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 10:14

Oh, a conspiracy plot, the rich against the poor people, how refreshing!

Apart the class vs class part of the story, that to me has no sense at all, why should have Bloxam invented that episode? He was not a friend of Ellis; as far as I knew they were not even in Rugby School at the same time, even if the article in the link above says that there was just one year and an half between Ellis and Bloxam. Why should Bloxam have made right the Ellis name, and not his own (Bloxam) proper name, or the one of a relative or friend? He was naming the "creator" of rugby, if he was inventing the story why choosing an unknown guy and not giving the merit to someone more dear?
Bloxam narrated the story in 1876, when likely there were several other his and Ellis' school fellows still alive: why inventing a story, and spreading it publicly, that other people could have easily negated?
And Bloxam was a Rugby antiquarian, a Rugby School benefactor and "spent much of his life living literally across the road from the school": maybe he knew something about the story of the Rugby School.
But nineteen years after his declarations the Rugby society made an enquire and almost no clues about Ellis were found. So the 1895 remembrances are right and the 1876 testimony is rubbish...

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Re: Small news

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 12:00

Canalina wrote:Oh, a conspiracy plot, the rich against the poor people, how refreshing!

Apart the class vs class part of the story, that to me has no sense at all, why should have Bloxam invented that episode? He was not a friend of Ellis; as far as I knew they were not even in Rugby School at the same time, even if the article in the link above says that there was just one year and an half between Ellis and Bloxam. Why should Bloxam have made right the Ellis name, and not his own (Bloxam) proper name, or the one of a relative or friend? He was naming the "creator" of rugby, if he was inventing the story why choosing an unknown guy and not giving the merit to someone more dear?
Bloxam narrated the story in 1876, when likely there were several other his and Ellis' school fellows still alive: why inventing a story, and spreading it publicly, that other people could have easily negated?
And Bloxam was a Rugby antiquarian, a Rugby School benefactor and "spent much of his life living literally across the road from the school": maybe he knew something about the story of the Rugby School.
But nineteen years after his declarations the Rugby society made an enquire and almost no clues about Ellis were found. So the 1895 remembrances are right and the 1876 testimony is rubbish...


I mean seriously you can't be interested in rugby's history as a sport without accepting that class based snobbery was the single most important reason for the game splitting. The Ellis myth is fundamental to that, it was ONLY propagated after the split by people with good reason to play it up.

A handling version of the generic football is as old as games are themselves. Look at the medieval games in the midlands like the Atherstone Ball Game or the Hallaton bottle kicking. These are clearly proto-rugby, Atherstone must only be 20 miles from Rugby. But we are asked to believe that Ellis was the first person to pick the ball up with no supporting evidence. Come on, that's clearly nonsense.

If you need an answer to why people say random shit with no evidence I offer you this forum. People make shit up to support their positions all the time. "Why would he lie" is not evidence of it being correct.

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 13:32

The Ellis episode was narrated by Bloxam 19 years before the split. If we want to understand if it was realistic or not the fact that it was propagated after 19 years and for which reason it was propagated is not important, I think. The cause-> effect ratio streams just with the time, not against the time. The Ellis episode was not created in 1895, it was just made "more" public; it was already public because printed in a Rugby newspaper.
I suppose that the negative judgement that many people have about the Ellis story is because World Rugby used it, and as we all perfectly know World Rugby is a cove of old pirates.
Let's pretend that World Rugby never used it, that the World Cup is not named after the boy, that the Bloxam version of the story was not known until this morning, and that this morning a retired old Rugby citizen reading by hobby ancient newspapers discovered that story and made it public: we would receive it at the scream of "rubbish!" or we would think "what an incredible discover! We will never know if it's totally, partially or not at all true, but it's certainly a very precious document about the history of rugby!"

Ellis was supposedly the first boy who run with the ball in the hands in the college of Rugby, when the rules of football in that college were already formed and prohibiting that move. In almost the other colleges football evolved toward nowadays soccer, in Rugby and few other colleges evolved toward nowadays rugby. Is there a reason for this differentiation? It's hard to find this reason in medieval or ancient greek games, because they wouldn't explain the difference between soccer and rugby. There must have been something different, happened in the Rugby School. I know that it's very unlikely that one single episode is at the base of the creation of rugby, but still it may have happened and it may have somehow really influenced the creation of the game. It's not a story invented by Beaumont, it's a story narrated in the XIX century by a quasi-schoolfellow of Ellis. How it may be judged as rubbish the testimony of a person that nobody of us has known and about which we know very few it's something that I hardly understand; the only explanation, as I already said, is that the World Rugby stigma hit also Bloxam and Ellis

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Re: Small news

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 13:45

Canalina wrote:The Ellis episode was narrated by Bloxam 19 years before the split. If we want to understand if it was realistic or not the fact that it was propagated after 19 years and for which reason it was propagated is not important, I think. The cause-> effect ratio streams just with the time, not against the time. The Ellis episode was not created in 1895, it was just made "more" public; it was already public because printed in a Rugby newspaper.
I suppose that the negative judgement that many people have about the Ellis story is because World Rugby used it, and as we all perfectly know World Rugby is a cove of old pirates.
Let's pretend that World Rugby never used it, that the World Cup is not named after the boy, that the Bloxam version of the story was not known until this morning, and that this morning a retired old Rugby citizen reading by hobby ancient newspapers discovered that story and made it public: we would receive it at the scream of "rubbish!" or we would think "what an incredible discover! We will never know if it's totally, partially or not at all true, but it's certainly a very precious document about the history of rugby!"


Listen to the Tony Collins episode linked above and then lets talk again. You should at least listen to one of the renown football (as in the family of sports that is football) historians in England. He is NOT a random podcaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Collins_(historian)

About the second part: if a historian finds out about it: fair enough. He will not claim such a thing without proper research and evidence.

William Webb Ellis seems to be purely folklore and nothing more as things stand.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 14:16

Canalina wrote:We already talked about that. It is not without historical bases. There was a man, somewhen toward the end of XIX century, who narrated to have entered in the Rugby School two years after that episode, and that someone described it to him naming William Webb Ellis as the protagonist.
Is that a proof that rugby was born in that exact day? No, it would be excessive to say so and certainly World Rugby uses it as a founding myth, as Victorsra says.
But we should ignore that testimony? I'd say certainly not! It's the closest testimony we have about the first steps of rugby, it's a precious one and I can't see why we should dismiss it as "rubbish"


Man, it is basicaly all rugby historians (proper historians, not journalists sellig books) saying. It is not me.

The thing is: what is the definition of a sport? What makes a sport different from a game? Written rules are one of the main things.

Rugby's first written rules are from 1845
. Whatever Webb Ellis played, was just a game with oral rules. And oral rules are inconsistent, changeable. As a student, Webb Ellis definitly played a game there, that was for sure, as every other student, but by 1845 (and that historians show) nobody knew him. And that's the point. The boys that wrote the rules compiled the tradition and which elements they invented right there we will never know. But the sport was born with that set of rules, tributary to local tradition.

Also, i never said it is rubbish. Myths are history, because they play a role in collective thought, they influence people. In a sense, myths are real because they play a social role. And also myths suggest mentalities, practices. The Webb Ellis story is one sort of a testimony of how schoolboys were playing folk football games by the 1820s and possibly by the 1810s. Which is important.
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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 17:04

I can accept this distinction between game-oral rules and sport-written rules, but however the way a game is born is at least as much interesting as the way a sport is born. I mean, the Ellis episode is anyway a precious document in the game of rugby history, even if it happened two decades before the rules were written. And I accept every skepticism about that episode, no problem, of course I don't know too if it was real or not; I just don't like the "rubbish" definition because I can't understand it.
And I wouldn't define that episode neither a "myth": it's not a narration about the foundation of Rome, is not a tale narrated five centuries after the fact, it was narrated half century after the fact by a person which at the moment of the fact was alive and maybe studying in the same school. It's not a myth, it's a person's remembrance.

Anyway, this is the Ellis' episode according to Bloxam, as reported by Wikipedia; note that he wrote the story to the newspaper of the Rugby School, so to a newspaper certainly read also by other old former pupils (in 1876 he was in his late 60s, I think); it's hard to believe that he invented a story in front of people that knew the old life of the school as much as him. If it's true that no one confirmed it, it seems also that no one denied it with a confuting letter to the same newspaper. Note also the last lines, where Bloxam admit to not know if that episode leaded to something concrete or not

Bloxam is the sole source of the story that the game of Rugby football had its origins in the moment when William Webb Ellis picked up the ball during a game of football at Rugby School. In October 1876, in an effort to refute the assertion that carrying the ball had been an ancient tradition, he wrote to The Meteor, the Rugby School magazine, that he had learnt from an unnamed source that the change from a kicking game to a handling game had "..originated with a town boy or foundationer of the name of Ellis, William Webb Ellis". In December 1880, in another letter to the Meteor, Bloxam elaborated on the story:

A boy of the name Ellis – William Webb Ellis – a town boy and a foundationer, .... whilst playing Bigside at football in that half-year [1823], caught the ball in his arms. This being so, according to the then rules, he ought to have retired back as far as he pleased, without parting with the ball, for the combatants on the opposite side could only advance to the spot where he had caught the ball, and were unable to rush forward till he had either punted it or had placed it for some one else to kick, for it was by means of these placed kicks that most of the goals were in those days kicked, but the moment the ball touched the ground the opposite side might rush on. Ellis, for the first time, disregarded this rule, and on catching the ball, instead of retiring backwards, rushed forwards with the ball in his hands towards the opposite goal, with what result as to the game I know not, neither do I know how this infringement of a well-known rule was followed up, or when it became, as it is now, a standing rule.

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 17:34

Have you ever visited RFU's museum in Twickenham? They try to conciliate what historians say with the tradition of Webb Ellis myth. It is a very interesting effort, as they don't dismiss the importance of Webb Ellis story, while showing what it is the proper historical process of rugby's formation and consolidation as a sport. In the end, what they show there, is Webb Ellis didn't realy invented rugby, but maybe played an important role in the development of a tradition of oral rules that lead to the written rules of 1845 (the proper foundation date of rugby as a sport). BTW, they have a 1845 book there, pretty cool. If you like history of rugby, start with Collins work, that will show you the big picture.
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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 18:19

If the Collins you refer to is this (http://www.tony-collins.org/rugbyreload ... m-the-dead), I pass...
That prologue doesn't seem to me a balanced one: he has decided that Ellis has nothing to do with the birth of rugby and presents the facts accordingly to his convincement

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 20:44

He has an extensive work that is not resumed to a blog. Read his book, The Social History of English Rugby. It is not "opinion", it is scienfic research on the Social History field, that can only be refuted in the same terms, with methodology, documents and theory, not guessing. In fact, he has a very different view from another school of reserachers, lead by Eric Dunning (that follows Norbert Elias). Dunning has definitly the most important work ever written about the creation of rugby/association football (a book called Barbarians, Players and Gentlemen.. read that one too, there is no real debate without Dunning in this subject). But both converge in terms of what Webb Ellis is, their interpretation vary. Like the RFU, with its museum and group of reserarches. Pay attention: RFU researches don't disagree with Collins/Dunning.

Of course, RFU or World Rugby don't need to throw Webb Ellis away, as a myth plays a role, as I said, but they only need (and RFU already does) put him in historical perspective. But RFU has a museum with research approach, while WR still doesn't. Maybe the guys behind the WR Hall of Fame simply agree with RFU's position: put in perspective, incorporate what the historians are saying, keeping the folklore as folklore.

In the end, there is not a single academic researcher that believes Webb Ellis is the "founding father" of rugby. If you find one, a social scentist, a historian (and not a mere journalist), please show me how he/she debates this topic, how he/she critices Collins' or Dunning's position. That's how science works. But we live in a world where some people believe the Earth is Flat, so...
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Re: Small news

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 07:09

Canalina wrote:If the Collins you refer to is this (http://www.tony-collins.org/rugbyreload ... m-the-dead), I pass...
That prologue doesn't seem to me a balanced one: he has decided that Ellis has nothing to do with the birth of rugby and presents the facts accordingly to his convincement


Give him a go. Also I would be very interested to read from a historian backing up your claims. You know that's how history works at least, when I studied it in university.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
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Re: Small news

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 11:34

I confess I'm tired all time debunking WWE myth in my native land

So just odd notes for this discussion:

0) Man is free to believe in what he wants

1) WWE myth is misunderstood in non-English countries
as there people think that
original *XIX century football* was what *FIFA football*
is nowadays, ie without tackling and extremely limited handling

2) People who try reconciling WWE version with real history
actually imply that Aussie Rules (AFL) was parent-code of Rugby
for WWE was allowed to pick ball up and then kick, but not run

+) I think this OLD & RESPECTFUL source would help: page 36 of SCAN
http://biblio.qaflan.net/SKANI/1975_OXF ... PANION.pdf

If two major earliest historians had never heard about WWE episode then
it is evident to me that it was RESULT of OLD CHEAT's WISHFUL FANTASY

::: full stop :::

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 11:57

If I will have the chance, I will read the suggested books. At the moment, I note these weak things (weak to me) in the Collins on line prologue

William Webb Ellis - back from the dead

September 21, 2015
I wrote the following short piece as the prologue to A Social History of English Rugby Union in 2009. At that time, the William Webb Ellis myth (saying it is a myth is already giving an opinion, not presenting facts) seemed to be fading away. But as anyone who saw Friday's opening of rugby union's world cup [which you can see below], it's back with a vengeance, And once again, expediency, this time commercial (the decision by World Rugby to adopt the Ellis story doesn't have to be 'commercial' at any chance, a person may choose to adopt a fascinating story just for the pleasure of, to surround his activity with a fascinating background: presenting this operation as 'commercial' shows again, to me, a biased approach by Collins), has outweighed evidence...
Of the little that is known about William Webb Ellis, we can be certain of one thing. He did not invent the game of rugby football. (No, we are not certain. We may think that it's unlikely or very unlikely that he invented the game, but we can't be certain of)

An unremarkable schoolboy, he lived his life in dutiful obscurity as an Anglican clergyman until his death in 1872. Four years later, however, a second life began for him when Rugby School old boy and benefactor Matthew Bloxam suddenly named Ellis as the boy who in 1823 first picked up the ball and ran with it. Bloxam offered no evidence for his claim (no one VHS, neither one single DVD! At least a confession written by Ellis and signed with the blood! No, he offered no evidence! O silly old man! Which kind of evidence should have he presented? He was an old man narrating an episode of his youthness fifty-three years after the fact; when at the pub the veterans remember games of the old time when they were playing they offer 'evidences'?...). Nor did he provide any in 1880 when he reiterated his view.

At the height of the war that split rugby apart in 1895, the Old Rugbeian Society set up a committee to investigate the true origins of the Rugby football. Despite considerable efforts, not one person came forward to support Bloxam. The committee found not a single eye-witness, not a solitary written word, not even a syllable of hearsay evidence to support the William Webb Ellis story (and not a single eye-witness, not a solitary written word, not even a syllable or hearsay evidence to confute the William Webb Ellis story emerged in 1876 and in 1880, when Bloxam published his two letters).

Nevertheless, the committee decided ‘in all probability’ that Ellis was the ‘innovator’ of running with the ball. In 1900 a plaque was erected at the school that proclaimed unhesitatingly that Ellis ‘with a fine disregard of the rules of football as played in his time, first took the ball in his arms and ran with it’ in 1823.

Not for the first time in the history of rugby, evidence had been outweighed by exigency. (so the Old Rugbeian Society had the exigency to have a story confirming that rugby was born in the college. And what they did? They created false proofs? No, they organized a commission and made an investigation between the school veterans, they didn't find clues and publicly said it. May we at least assume that that Society of supposed conspirators against the truth was at least honest?)

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Re: Small news

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 13:01

One person's view is not evidence, is not history.

Ellis appears in the British Newspaper archives hundreds of times in his own life time, was the rector of reasonably prominent London church for years (St Celment Danes Church on The Strand, opposite the Royal Courts of Justice, near Kings College & Embankment), has his death widely reported in London & Essex circles. But never a word about his invention of a by then widely popular type of football!

In 1891 during a history of the school & its games he is not named, though by then the story is being referenced occasionally by Bloxham writing into Newspapers, you can find the original 1880 letter in the Nuneaton Advertiser if you wish. Funnily enough 1891 is when the first real rule changes against proto professionalism, the ban on any form of league comes in. Funny that.

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Mon, 07 Sep 2020, 04:02

The first test match after the irruption of the pandemic could be Poland v Ukraine on October 10, a game of the RE Trophy. The last test was instead France v Scotland on March 8; this means a hiatus of at least 7 months and 2 days without test matches. It's the biggest time distance between two test matches since 1945-46, id est between Netherlands v Belgium in 1945 (date unknown, supposedly in the middle of the year) and Belgium v Netherlands 1946 (played in April according to RugbyInternational.net, in July according to Espn Scrum).
The largest gaps ever were anyway between Italy v Romania, May 1942, and Netherlands v Belgium, 1945; and between Australia v New Zealand, August 1914, and Romania v USA, July 1919.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/ ... ;type=year

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Re: Small news

Postby Canalina » Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 12:22

This page worths a look

https://twitter.com/RugbyFields

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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 16:54

Cool.

Nice about Gibraltar's new stadium in Europa Point:
Image

Europa point is Gibraltar southermost point, looking Africa.
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Re: Small news

Postby victorsra » Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 16:03

World Rugby has a new website https://www.world.rugby/

Let's hope the new layout splits sevens from 15s when sevens begins.
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