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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 11 Feb 2020, 01:35

Yes, sorry, I meant I think nothing will happen.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Edgar » Tue, 11 Feb 2020, 09:12

It still amazes me that those opposed to the exclusive, closed-shop nature of the 6 Nations should be in favor of such concepts as a 2nd tier Championship or a series involving all the best teams in the world NOT in the 6 Nations. That's just going to create the same kinds of problems elsewhere. The emphasis needs to be on interaction between the tiers and creating pathways to the top; not on providing custom-made competitions for teams at the same level - especially those geographically far apart. Argentina and Japan need to remain involved with the South American and Asian regions first and foremost, and South Africa with its own continent, but Japan should also have more interaction with first tier teams.

Anyway, the Players' Association has also come out against the idea of an expanded 6 Nations:

"When the Six Nations has discussed moving to a six week schedule for the tournament there were concerns about player welfare, and Scotland were concerned about not having the strength in depth to be able to get a team through the intensity of that kind of six week window."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... gG4yC6k4t4

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 11 Feb 2020, 13:55

victorsra wrote:The absence of France vs England and all matches between Home Nations is a non starter. Nobody will kill those fixtures, therefore the groups format is unlikely to happen.

That's why my 8-team format doesn't have semifinals and final. Instead, the top two teams from each group play each other. So as long as both France and England advance to the final four, they would be guaranteed to play each other annually.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 11 Feb 2020, 14:23

There's a difference between being opposed and being realistic about the scenario. Are we discussing the perfect model or what can be done now?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:11

Castrogiovanni and myrugby.ge: jab and counter-jab... :)

"If only the quality and result of the game was decisive, Georgia would probably be in 6 nations" - Castrojovani
Italian rugby legend Martin Castrojovani spoke to the Irish The42.ie about a notorious topic - Georgia's possible replacement of Italy in 6 nations, which has been increasingly talked about by foreign fans in recent years. According to Kastrojovan, these are cheap conversations.
According to the Irish edition, Georgia will have the best chance to prove its capabilities to the rugby world in November. The Bogs will face England, Wales and Ireland in the autumn Cup of Nations (in 8 nations), and in the playoffs there is a great chance to play against Italy.
Martin Kastrojovani thinks that even if Georgia manages to present itself well at the tournament, it will not be enough to get in the 6 nations. He notes that if the results and the quality of the game were the only decisive factor in Georgia's admission to the 6 nations, then Tbilisi might already have been the destination of the tournament.
"People are talking because it 's free. If we impose a tax on nonsense, they will not say so much nonsense" the legendary tower said when asked if the constant speculation about participation in Italy's 6 nations was irritating.
"Ireland, England... I don't think they want to add Georgia. Nobody wants to go to Georgia. They like coming to Italy because here is Rome."
Martin Castrojovanny played 119 times for the Italian national team in 2002-2016 and managed to score 12 tries. Only Sergio Paris has more capes on it.
Recall that the Italian national team was accepted in 2000 in 6 nations. Since then, Adzuri has played 103 matches in Europe's most prestigious tournament, winning only 12, drawing 1 and losing 100 times. They showed their best results in 2007 and 2013 when they won two matches and finished fourth. Most likely, the Italians will take the last place this year as well, and consequently, they will win the "wooden spoon" for the fifteenth time. The Italians have lost all their matches in 6 nations since 2015.

https://myrugby.ge/slaidi/3348-gadamwyv ... ovani.html

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby GeoRugby » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 01:52

Canalina wrote:Castrogiovanni and myrugby.ge: jab and counter-jab... :)

"If only the quality and result of the game was decisive, Georgia would probably be in 6 nations" - Castrojovani
Italian rugby legend Martin Castrojovani spoke to the Irish The42.ie about a notorious topic - Georgia's possible replacement of Italy in 6 nations, which has been increasingly talked about by foreign fans in recent years. According to Kastrojovan, these are cheap conversations.
According to the Irish edition, Georgia will have the best chance to prove its capabilities to the rugby world in November. The Bogs will face England, Wales and Ireland in the autumn Cup of Nations (in 8 nations), and in the playoffs there is a great chance to play against Italy.
Martin Kastrojovani thinks that even if Georgia manages to present itself well at the tournament, it will not be enough to get in the 6 nations. He notes that if the results and the quality of the game were the only decisive factor in Georgia's admission to the 6 nations, then Tbilisi might already have been the destination of the tournament.
"People are talking because it 's free. If we impose a tax on nonsense, they will not say so much nonsense" the legendary tower said when asked if the constant speculation about participation in Italy's 6 nations was irritating.
"Ireland, England... I don't think they want to add Georgia. Nobody wants to go to Georgia. They like coming to Italy because here is Rome."
Martin Castrojovanny played 119 times for the Italian national team in 2002-2016 and managed to score 12 tries. Only Sergio Paris has more capes on it.
Recall that the Italian national team was accepted in 2000 in 6 nations. Since then, Adzuri has played 103 matches in Europe's most prestigious tournament, winning only 12, drawing 1 and losing 100 times. They showed their best results in 2007 and 2013 when they won two matches and finished fourth. Most likely, the Italians will take the last place this year as well, and consequently, they will win the "wooden spoon" for the fifteenth time. The Italians have lost all their matches in 6 nations since 2015.

https://myrugby.ge/slaidi/3348-gadamwyv ... ovani.html


No one will kick Italy out of 6N , but there is something wrong, when the main argument from an Italian player for keeping Italy in 6N becomes-They want to come here because it's Rome. Whats wrong with Tbilisi? Hospitable people, beautiful architecture, great wine and delicious food. Scotland didn't mind coming to Georgia.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 01:57

I think nobody has the power to kick Italy out, as they are one of the owners of Six Nations. Unless Italy itself agrees to have a promotion-relegation system. I guess that's why it needed to unanimously approved. People usualy talk like if Italy was an invitational side.

But I'd like to know is the 6N Ltd constitution. Never saw it.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 02:23

The only way to kick Italy out is to buy them out, and no one has any intention of kicking Italy out. A really good Spain or Germany would make it a different conversation in regards to Economics.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Rebus » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 06:02

You cant kick one country out pure and simple and Georgia have not demonstrated they could beat the bottom team of the 6 nations.
When Italy or Scotland have recently played Georgia they have always won. The 6 Nations countries are not going to vote for relegation/promotion to be put in place as the financial loss would cripple the rugby unions , and in the respect of Scotland , Wales , Ireland and Italy that would mean their club game could not be financed.
The only way to do it is to get expansion and with the breakup of Super Rugby and financial losses due to COVID , and this is just my opinion, it is more likely that South Africa will be invited into an expanded 6 Nations with Georgia most likely also invited in as a sweetener.

It is importat that if you want relegation/promotion , the second tier has to be strong froma rugby and financial sense and that is not the case. No country is going to vote for relegation when some of the Rugby Europe Championship countries do not have profressional leagues and home attendances for internationals are less than 10,000.

I keep saying it, but the 6 Nations countries have to demonstrate altruism to spread the game.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 08:42

GeoRugby wrote:
Canalina wrote:Castrogiovanni and myrugby.ge: jab and counter-jab... :)

"If only the quality and result of the game was decisive, Georgia would probably be in 6 nations" - Castrojovani
Italian rugby legend Martin Castrojovani spoke to the Irish The42.ie about a notorious topic - Georgia's possible replacement of Italy in 6 nations, which has been increasingly talked about by foreign fans in recent years. According to Kastrojovan, these are cheap conversations.
According to the Irish edition, Georgia will have the best chance to prove its capabilities to the rugby world in November. The Bogs will face England, Wales and Ireland in the autumn Cup of Nations (in 8 nations), and in the playoffs there is a great chance to play against Italy.
Martin Kastrojovani thinks that even if Georgia manages to present itself well at the tournament, it will not be enough to get in the 6 nations. He notes that if the results and the quality of the game were the only decisive factor in Georgia's admission to the 6 nations, then Tbilisi might already have been the destination of the tournament.
"People are talking because it 's free. If we impose a tax on nonsense, they will not say so much nonsense" the legendary tower said when asked if the constant speculation about participation in Italy's 6 nations was irritating.
"Ireland, England... I don't think they want to add Georgia. Nobody wants to go to Georgia. They like coming to Italy because here is Rome."
Martin Castrojovanny played 119 times for the Italian national team in 2002-2016 and managed to score 12 tries. Only Sergio Paris has more capes on it.
Recall that the Italian national team was accepted in 2000 in 6 nations. Since then, Adzuri has played 103 matches in Europe's most prestigious tournament, winning only 12, drawing 1 and losing 100 times. They showed their best results in 2007 and 2013 when they won two matches and finished fourth. Most likely, the Italians will take the last place this year as well, and consequently, they will win the "wooden spoon" for the fifteenth time. The Italians have lost all their matches in 6 nations since 2015.

https://myrugby.ge/slaidi/3348-gadamwyv ... ovani.html


No one will kick Italy out of 6N , but there is something wrong, when the main argument from an Italian player for keeping Italy in 6N becomes-They want to come here because it's Rome. Whats wrong with Tbilisi? Hospitable people, beautiful architecture, great wine and delicious food. Scotland didn't mind coming to Georgia.


Nobody know tblissi here in the west. It's just seen as a poor far eastern european country. No more, no one has an idea of what it may look (but that looks beautiful, definitely want to travel to georgia soon).
Whereas Rome, everyone knows it. It's a major and splendid city, well connected to the rest of Western europe. Easy to come there for a weekend, many things to do, to see, to eat... That's a valuable brand.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 10:55

The main thing for the Autumn Nations Cup is the structure.

If people like the structure it can be used as a blueprint for a new 8 Nations in the future, Georgia and Romania added. Even if it had to be inched in with no threat of relegation for the main 6 and a play off for the other two if they came bottom it would be big progress. If we ever got to that stage we could then look to the future of a fully aligned European pyramid.

So I really think the main thing is to be positive about the structure. Obviously Georgia getting comparable results to Italy in the tournament would be a huge boon too.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Thomas » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 13:13

the sceptic in me thinks, one slot will go to SA now that they pulled out of the RC. Georgia to fight it out with Italy for the other slot if it does go 8N

Even 7N, SA is in the driving seat. I hope I am totally wrong here.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 14:13

Thomas wrote:the sceptic in me thinks, one slot will go to SA now that they pulled out of the RC. Georgia to fight it out with Italy for the other slot if it does go 8N

Even 7N, SA is in the driving seat. I hope I am totally wrong here.


They pulled out of 2020, not forever.

The model has just 4 rounds. It doesn't serve for the future.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 14:35

I've proposed an 8-team European Nations Championship.

The first phase would have two groups of four teams (3 matches each).

The top two teams advance to the finals (2 matches)
The bottom two teams advance to the repechage (also 2 matches).

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 15:10

The bottom matches would mean money lost for the 2 6Ns that play them.

Also, the groups system means not everybody playing England, that is (lets face it) the major rival of everybody but Italy. It is hard to believe France, Scotland, Ireland or Wales would accept a tournament without a match against England. And any change (I believe) must be unanimous, as the 6 teams are owners.

:lol:

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 16:39

TV money potentially though. That's what I mean about being positive about the format though, let people who actually think that say it, then challenge whether it is such a big deal, don't put words in their mouths!

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Figaro » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 18:04

victorsra wrote:The bottom matches would mean money lost for the 2 6Ns that play them.

Also, the groups system means not everybody playing England, that is (lets face it) the major rival of everybody but Italy. It is hard to believe France, Scotland, Ireland or Wales would accept a tournament without a match against England. And any change (I believe) must be unanimous, as the 6 teams are owners.

:lol:


I know loads of English people who got really offended by that ad. Everyone else thought it was hilarious

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 18:12

It is a bit bizarre to be offended by the simple fact you are everyones rivals... it wasn't agressive, it was even friendly, the type of healthy rivalry of rugby. But, I'm not English to judge.

TV money potentially though. That's what I mean about being positive about the format though, let people who actually think that say it, then challenge whether it is such a big deal, don't put words in their mouths!

I just said I don't believe the Unions would want the groups system and I said why :?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 21:13

victorsra wrote:It is a bit bizarre to be offended by the simple fact you are everyones rivals... it wasn't agressive, it was even friendly, the type of healthy rivalry of rugby. But, I'm not English to judge.

TV money potentially though. That's what I mean about being positive about the format though, let people who actually think that say it, then challenge whether it is such a big deal, don't put words in their mouths!

I just said I don't believe the Unions would want the groups system and I said why :?


I don't think the British teams would mind, but the teams in the other pool would object, especially France.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 06:59

victorsra wrote:
Thomas wrote:the sceptic in me thinks, one slot will go to SA now that they pulled out of the RC. Georgia to fight it out with Italy for the other slot if it does go 8N

Even 7N, SA is in the driving seat. I hope I am totally wrong here.


They pulled out of 2020, not forever.

The model has just 4 rounds. It doesn't serve for the future.


I actually think 4 rounds might even be a selling point. Those four rounds actually mean also one more game overall (16vs.15 games) in a shorter time-frame (remember clubs vs. Unions disputes) and the ability to plan forward (like in this year nations from pot A host the finals). The teams not playing each other in the 8 Nations could also arrange friendlies in Autumn/June.

In a world, where the 6N would think just a bit forward, you would have the 6N + two other teams, from which at least one is European and even have a promotion/relegation for at least one of those additional teams.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Rebus » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 09:29

[/quote]
I actually think 4 rounds might even be a selling point. Those four rounds actually mean also one more game overall (16vs.15 games) in a shorter time-frame (remember clubs vs. Unions disputes) and the ability to plan forward (like in this year nations from pot A host the finals). The teams not playing each other in the 8 Nations could also arrange friendlies in Autumn/June.

In a world, where the 6N would think just a bit forward, you would have the 6N + two other teams, from which at least one is European and even have a promotion/relegation for at least one of those additional teams.[/quote]

My understanding was there was to be a central pooling of monies , such as TV deals so if you are able to involve more countries with a wider TV audience then this would make sense. I appreciate people want to hold onto tradition , but tournaments evolve and this is a logical step in doing so. Who the two other teams mentioned above is uncertain , but it would seem sensible to have South Africa and Georgia. You get the World Champions who have many players already in Europe and Georgia who are ranked above Italy and would seem the next step to increase the tournament participants..
Its a no-brainer to expand the 6N this way. The only questions should be when rather than if , and how do you get the next tranche of countries involved. You cant wait another 20 years to get the likes of Spain , Netherlands , Romania etc involved

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 14:50

I do prefer the group system. But I don't think the 6Ns would think this way. They still don't have a reason to expand in their pov, unless South Africa is realy free - or, let's say, Russia brings a big load of money. I don't see the Home Nations giving up matches between them or France giving up a match against England just to "think forward" and let Georgia, Romania & etc in because it might pay off in the future.

The teams not playing each other in the 8 Nations could also arrange friendlies in Autumn/June.


The total number of matches won't change because the clubs won't let it. It will stay as 11-12 matches/year (unless national teams play without England/France-based players... which is possible, but values less). The key thing about any project of expansion lies here, in how to manage the whole 11-12 matches/year.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby welshdragon2000 » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 15:23

How about this?
2 groups of 4 for the 8N:
Group A:
Wales
England
Georgia
France

Group B:
Ireland
Scotland
Italy
South Africa/whichever team is the 8th.

Play one game against each team in the group then play a final as we discussed on here before. Then, the teams which you don’t play, you will play in a tournament alongside some other nations eg New Zealand, Japan, Fiji, Australia etc. So let’s use Wales from the example above. They play England, Georgia and France in the group stage and they end up playing Ireland in their “final.” So the tournament they will participate in will be against Scotland, Italy, South Africa and let’s say Australia. They could play a warmup or two against let’s say the USA and Russia. This way, you have something to play for rather than a friendly match (not that there is one in test rugby). I would much rather play England in a game that actually carries more weight than just bragging rights. Plus, an additional international tournament would be a lot more lucrative to TV companies. If Wales were to play against Italy in a ‘friendly’ match, then I don’t think it’d be so well publicised in a country like the US, whereas if it were dubbed an international tournament, then it’d be much more appealing for your casual fan and for the tv companies themselves.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 16:23

I still think the tests will die. They don't offer the comercial value needed. WR hasn't abandoned the idea of a world league. In the other hand, Pichot's World League model was too disruptive. I think if there is a model more like the UEFA Nations League, you could have two Europeans in the same group, for exemple, more or less complementary to an expanded 8 Nations (teams that haven't played each other in the 8N could be in the same World League group, for exemple). That could work, but would bring the British resistance against promotion-relegation again to the table of the World League.

But yes, if the Cartellians can see a big picture of two competitions that value money and are complementary, well, things can move forward indeed. Pichot was thinking about combining tournaments, but probably the more logical concept is to make them complementary.

So, yes, I believe Welshdragon moved in the right direction.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby iul » Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 18:19

The likeliest way the 6N will expand is by selling franchises. If some European nation with a half decent national team would offer them a few hundred million euros for an equal share and a spot in the league they might accept.

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