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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 10:56

carbonero wrote:
If those clubs along with Ceibos in Cordoba, Penarol, Selknam and Olimpia could develop a thriving league you may see some of the URBA clubs wanting to join either due to necessity as they lose players and prestige...

These are social clubs. Turning pro is not in the realm of possibility. It will never happen in our lifetime. The only way forward is with some sort of franchise.

...because a fan group separate to the existing clubs develops as they want to join the league.

Our clubs don’t have fans. They have associates. For example, Hindu doesn't have casual fans. Every "supporter" has a previous relationship with the club: they use to play sports there, they currently play sports there or they know someone who does (friend, relative, partner, etc.).


Right but they have power in the current structure and want prestige, otherwise why get shirty about the players going pro in SLAR in the first place?

I think the latter is splitting hairs a bit. But I know what you mean and that is kind of what I mean. These guys aren't going to dump Hindu or CASI for another team and aren't going to support a new team unless they feel there is no conflict between them.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 10:58

Tobar wrote:
carbonero wrote:
If those clubs along with Ceibos in Cordoba, Penarol, Selknam and Olimpia could develop a thriving league you may see some of the URBA clubs wanting to join either due to necessity as they lose players and prestige...

These are social clubs. Turning pro is not in the realm of possibility. It will never happen in our lifetime. The only way forward is with some sort of franchise.

...because a fan group separate to the existing clubs develops as they want to join the league.

Our clubs don’t have fans. They have associates. For example, Hindu doesn't have casual fans. Every "supporter" has a previous relationship with the club: they use to play sports there, they currently play sports there or they know someone who does (friend, relative, partner, etc.).


I am not familiar with the concept of clubs turning pro (I’m used to the American style of franchises). Could they theoretically turn pro but still have their amateur premier side? Not that they would necessarily do it but is this an option?


This is what happened in France and what has happened to a number of clubs in England (Sale, Wasps, Quins, London Irish). Effectively the first team would "go pro" and the reserves become the first team in the previous tournaments.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 15:36

Right but they have power in the current structure and want prestige, otherwise why get shirty about the players going pro in SLAR in the first place?

Yeah, they have power in the current structure so they don’t want it to change. That doesn’t mean they will consider turning pro. Then, clubs like to bitch about everything. You had clubs with 100+ senior players that were worried about losing one guy to SLAR. We are not talking about rational beings.

These guys aren't going to dump Hindu or CASI for another team and aren't going to support a new team unless they feel there is no conflict between them.

Another thing to consider is that we get our rugby fix in the clubs. And the level is quite good. There isn’t much space in the weekend to attend another match. I prefer to follow my football team instead. You could make an effort for Pumas or Jaguares but with SLAR it starts getting dicey.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 15:41

Put a SLAR match at the same field as a local club?

These are obviously issues affecting us now given the current setup but this doesn’t mean that it will be the same issue in the next 10-20 years. Leagues and sports culture evolve.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 17:26

SLAR is being projected as a Friday-night league. This is a pretty logical thing in a region with strong ties to amateur clubs that play on saturdays. Not sure about Argentina, but at least in Brazil friday-night is soccer's second division day, not first division, which also helps. This means, if those URBA fields are suitable for night matches, they are good enough.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 17:43

victorsra wrote:SLAR is being projected as a Friday-night league. This is a pretty logical thing in a region with strong ties to amateur clubs that play on saturdays. Not sure about Argentina, but at least in Brazil friday-night is soccer's second division day, not first division, which also helps. This means, if those URBA fields are suitable for night matches, they are good enough.

Looking at Argentne Superliga, they always have a soccer top division match on Friday, but it isn't a top match, or at least rarely involve Boca and River. I think Friday nights are good for rugby indeed.

But there are many issues about Fridays. For exempe, in São Paulo, Fridays are a nightmare for traffic. If you want a match on Friday, it is better to be by 9 PM. It is ok because subway is open until 1 AM and we have the culture of late night sports. I think in all South America 9 PM is ok for sports. But this changes from country to country. I laughed when I watched a video from NZ with kiwis complaining 7 PM is too late for a match ("come on, my kids can't go back home 10 PM!", which sounded bizarre to me, specialy in a country with low crime).
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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 18:05

carbonero wrote:
Right but they have power in the current structure and want prestige, otherwise why get shirty about the players going pro in SLAR in the first place?

Yeah, they have power in the current structure so they don’t want it to change. That doesn’t mean they will consider turning pro. Then, clubs like to bitch about everything. You had clubs with 100+ senior players that were worried about losing one guy to SLAR. We are not talking about rational beings.

These guys aren't going to dump Hindu or CASI for another team and aren't going to support a new team unless they feel there is no conflict between them.

Another thing to consider is that we get our rugby fix in the clubs. And the level is quite good. There isn’t much space in the weekend to attend another match. I prefer to follow my football team instead. You could make an effort for Pumas or Jaguares but with SLAR it starts getting dicey.


Yes this is basically what I was trying to get at.

SLAR needs to grow outside BA first then move into it when it has a strong enough project in BA to make a dent.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 19:43

Sorry, I meant that UAR could establish two *Pro14* franchises in Madrid and Barcelona.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 21:09

NaBUru38 wrote:Sorry, I meant that UAR could establish two *Pro14* franchises in Madrid and Barcelona.


Establishing 2 Pro14 franchises from a foreign union is a rather silly idea

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Hernan14 » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 23:30

carbonero wrote:
Tobar wrote:I am not familiar with the concept of clubs turning pro (I’m used to the American style of franchises). Could they theoretically turn pro but still have their amateur premier side? Not that they would necessarily do it but is this an option?

URBA would have to change their bylaws. They don’t allow any professional sport within the clubs.

For example, the truckers union has their own multisport club interested in joining URBA. They already have a team that competes in corporate rugby, plus around 350 kids that play friendlies against other clubs. However, URBA doesn’t let them in because the club has a football side in third division. It is a dumb rule. The rugby section had to fund a separate club and now their affiliation is pending.

It’s been happening since the 1930’s. Some clubs like Gimnasia (LP) were disaffiliated from the UAR when football went pro (their rugby section is now La Plata RC). Other clubs more associated with rugby like Lomas, Belgrano or CASI were part of the Football Association but soon left after money was involved.


This is a myth created over the years, neither Lomas Athletic, Belgrano AC or CASI stopped participating in Football when the money started to be involved. Similarly the word "now" should be added in between "others clubs" and "more associated with rugby"

The reality was the terrible results that they began to have in front of the teams made up of "Criollos" (read No-British) ... Lomas Athletic, was champion 6 times of the Premier Division before the first Rugby championship will be played in 1899 (which they also won), and they stopped participating 21 years before Football would become professional, after a couple of bad seasons to finally be demoted to the Second Division and be thrashed in the 18-0 in the Cup by Estudiantes de Buenos Aires (still a record result in an official competition), they simply decided not to play anymore.

In the same way, Belgrano AC, another who also knew how to be champion in Football, repeated the same story, bad seasons, until they descended and stopped participating ... 15 years before Football became professional.

In both cases, money was not yet a "problem" to that clubs, the problem was the impossibility of accepting defeat against socially inferior teams.

About the CASI, they didn't even have a Rugby section when it was created (unlike the previous two in which its practice begun was almost in unison), and it continued until 1930 competing in football with more regular results until, but...the last 6 seasons they finished 23rd out of 25 teams, 32nd out of 34, 33rd out of 35, 31st out of 36, 32nd out of 34, 22nd out of 26...again, it was these lousy results that kept they away from the official practice of Football, in fact, in the both splits that the Argentine League had, CA San Isidro was always on the side of the League with the teams that finally advocate the professionalism and not the opposite (although in those unintelligible things it was called the Amateur Association)...


Regarding they don’t allow any professional sport within the clubs, it is only hypocrisy, the female hockey players with an official contract are accepted and their clubs are not expelled from the URBA...

Regarding Football teams, we have a pre-established idea about the most historic teams in the Premier Division, however there are countless teams that go from amateur to semi-professional, then to professional, and depending on the circumstances and results, they return to semi-professional, or amateurs until the results accompany them and return again in the same cycle, we must not forget that in Argentina the clubs are non-profit associations, not to mention that they are multi-sports (even the teams from the smallest towns), and the difference between amateurism and professionalism is only a change in the contractual relationship of the members of the first team squad and the club, not the club becomes professional, just the specific sports section, which through results on the field of play, they has managed to level up.

In Argentina's football, there is no such thing as a team that wins promotion, cannot play in some Division because their field doesn't meet the parameters or because they need an X certification blah blah blah, no, if you win, maybe need to play in another stadium if necessary, but you never lose the right you won on the field.

I am very proud of how the clubs are in my country, with all the problems that the big clubs may have, but there are thousands scattered throughout the country that act in the same way, their role at a social level and their help to other sports it is incalculable, and the task that the clubs that have Football as their flag is far greater regarding other amateur sports compared to those of Rugby, anchored in only admit Hockey and Lawn Bowls.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby TuMachNach » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 00:06

Has someone idea if UAR has something about against clubs having another sport in club playing professional competitions? I remember a club in Salta, Gimnasio y Tiro, that played in Football 1st Division (Professional) while having their rugby team in the 1st division of the regional competition.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 01:38

Mea culpa. Never looked into it that closely. I used to bring up Belgrano or CASI to make fun of Racing friends that like to count amateur titles. The other side of the coin, La Plata RC/ Gimnasia, seems to be true right?

TuMachNach wrote:Has someone idea if UAR has something about against clubs having another sport in club playing professional competitions? I remember a club in Salta, Gimnasio y Tiro, that played in Football 1st Division (Professional) while having their rugby team in the 1st division of the regional competition.

It depends on each regional union. Some unions like Salta, Tucumán or Córdoba don't give a fuck.

I find it dumb. As Hernan said, football clubs have done wonders for the development of others sports. At the least, they could provide legal status to several emerging rugby projects that don't have the resources to form their own club.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 07:42

@Hernan14
Thanks fot the great read! Those hypocrits in rugby really suck everywhere the same.

Sounds a lot like the soccer club system and general sports landscape in Germany. Many clubs have become croporations now, but the majority of 51% still needs to be held by the member's club. In Germany some clubs don't get promoted, because they don't have the money to rent a more suitable stadium where they also might get lower attendances, but yah, you don't lose your promotion if you don't really mess up and for some clubs there are also transitional periods.
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Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 10:44

FIFA have laws that competitions must be merit based and promotion only denied for reasonable off field reasons (i.e. your ground is a literal park and cannot be enclosed, or you have no floodlights and the competition requires mid-week matches for instance, and you have no intention or ability to play elsewhere).

Rugby obviously loves faux-regional tournaments controlled by blazers from public schools, with only France having a real professional meritocracy. England has one between the approved 13 clubs but it is more an oligarchy than anything else.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 19:47

Image

https://uar.com.ar/2020/06/19/rugby-2030-hacia-una-nueva-cultura/

Just released by the UAR:

The gist of it:
The Argentine Rugby Union unveiled "Rugby 2030, towards a new culture", a program that aims to recognize, hold accountable and resolve the conflict related to rugby in Argentina, seeking to create a new culture according to our times, reducing violence in all its aspects. The initiative covers 24 modules that will be implemented over two years and that involves all parts of this sport in the country: managers, coaches, players, families, unions and clubs, towards a profound transformation in these times that are in place.

The UAR will lead this unprecedented, complex initiative, together with Funrepar, an expert organization in conflict resolution, from a vision and conception of restorative philosophy.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 15:42

Tobar wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:Sorry, I meant that UAR could establish two *Pro14* franchises in Madrid and Barcelona.


Establishing 2 Pro14 franchises from a foreign union is a rather silly idea

The only way would be for a private investor to run the clubs and then utilise the common language to integrate Argentines with a Spanish squad.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 22:05

Higgik wrote:
Tobar wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:Sorry, I meant that UAR could establish two *Pro14* franchises in Madrid and Barcelona.


Establishing 2 Pro14 franchises from a foreign union is a rather silly idea

The only way would be for a private investor to run the clubs and then utilise the common language to integrate Argentines with a Spanish squad.


Yes, this would be completely different and could work. Then they can just have a partnership/agreement with the UAR for their players. Or just let them sign whoever they want but it’d be more fun with more Pumas.

But it can’t be run by any union otherwise player sections will end up being full of controversy.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 22:34

Tell me one professional sport that has a top level team from one country totaly based in another country to play a whole season. There is a reason this is not normal. There won't be a private investor doing this.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby sammo » Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 22:52

victorsra wrote:Tell me one professional sport that has a top level team from one country totaly based in another country to play a whole season. There is a reason this is not normal. There won't be a private investor doing this.


I’m not saying I agree with the concept, but I feel like before the 2012 Olympics the GB national handball team played in a European league. Can’t think of any other examples though

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 23:02

sammo wrote:
victorsra wrote:Tell me one professional sport that has a top level team from one country totaly based in another country to play a whole season. There is a reason this is not normal. There won't be a private investor doing this.


I’m not saying I agree with the concept, but I feel like before the 2012 Olympics the GB national handball team played in a European league. Can’t think of any other examples though


Well, you needed to make the handball team competitive. It happened for a reason, definitly not thinking about being a sustainable business. This is the thing that only happens for a non-repayable investment. Or as part of a long-term streategy (like Pampas XV as the foundation of the Jaguares project, that was planned to have Buenos Aires as the base).

And have a look on the big difference: GB, that is a zero market for handball, searched a better league with a very needed urgent development goal. Argentina would transfer operation to a country where rugby is less important than in Argentina (Spain) while Argentine players are already good enough to be hired by the European leagues. It is just non sense. The only reason why Jaguares exist it is to make all Pumas work in the same calendar (the SANZAAR calendar) and try (not succesfuly) to profit on Argentina's domestic market (what needed more time to happen). Meanwhile PRO14 is NOT SANZAAR calendar (not yet).

BTW, if PRO14 likes the idea of traveling to South Africa (at least before COVID), why they can't travel to Buenos Aires too? It is basicaly the same thing.... I don't like transcontinental league, but I'm not following people-that-likes-them's logic.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby theDarky » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 01:29

victorsra wrote:
sammo wrote:
victorsra wrote:Tell me one professional sport that has a top level team from one country totaly based in another country to play a whole season. There is a reason this is not normal. There won't be a private investor doing this.


I’m not saying I agree with the concept, but I feel like before the 2012 Olympics the GB national handball team played in a European league. Can’t think of any other examples though


Well, you needed to make the handball team competitive. It happened for a reason, definitly not thinking about being a sustainable business. This is the thing that only happens for a non-repayable investment. Or as part of a long-term streategy (like Pampas XV as the foundation of the Jaguares project, that was planned to have Buenos Aires as the base).

And have a look on the big difference: GB, that is a zero market for handball, searched a better league with a very needed urgent development goal. Argentina would transfer operation to a country where rugby is less important than in Argentina (Spain) while Argentine players are already good enough to be hired by the European leagues. It is just non sense. The only reason why Jaguares exist it is to make all Pumas work in the same calendar (the SANZAAR calendar) and try (not succesfuly) to profit on Argentina's domestic market (what needed more time to happen). Meanwhile PRO14 is NOT SANZAAR calendar (not yet).

BTW, if PRO14 likes the idea of traveling to South Africa (at least before COVID), why they can't travel to Buenos Aires too? It is basicaly the same thing.... I don't like transcontinental league, but I'm not following people-that-likes-them's logic.


I fully agree ... GB National handball team was created from players recruited from the classifieds ... some players discovered the sport at this occasion and need to learn to play technically and collectivally quickly.

But the pumas don't need that ... a pro argentinian league would be more interesting for them than the Pro 14.

Argentinian economy is bad but the country is enough big and could manage 6/8 pro teams without problem.

It's just a very conservative union like the japanese one and it won't happen soon (pichot would have to be useful for this change)

If tomorrow a competitive pro championship is created in Spain
probably the argentinian players will find some opportunities as player but in the different staffs too.

But a full argentinian team won't work at all.

Imagine a team in the UK made of only americans it would be the
same (don't talk me about the few NFL matches in London as they benefit from the american diaspora which work in Europe)

Same language and same roots but both cultures are evolved separatly over the last decades.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 21:15

If the global season comes to fruition, I’m warming up to the idea of Argentina having their Pro14 franchise in Spain. Only 10/15 players are going to sign in good European leagues, so we need to find the best level available for the rest of the team. Moving four months to South Africa sucks and SLAR ain’t good enough.

Having an outside investor would be ideal. However, the UAR could make it work on their own. They are spending US$ 7-8 million to be part of SR. Some of the money comes back through television, ticketing, sponsorship, etc. but the the union still has to chip in around US$ 3 million to cover the losses. Can the UAR start their franchise in Madrid for US$ 5-6 million? Can they get at least to US$ 3-4 million in revenue to have a similar cost structure than in SR? Let’s go through the basics:

- ESPN would be on board. The quality would suffer but at least there are more regular season games in better hours for the Argentine audience. If they invest 60% of what they did in Super Rugby, the franchise should be fine. Here they work hand in hand with Mediapro. That could give them a local partner to outsource production.

- The stadium is an issue. I know the Central is old and can’t be renovated. I find it is good enough for this competition. Great location as well. The local league generally plays on Sundays so there is no conflict with the clubs. The UAR spent US$ 750.000 last season to rent Velez. Would the university ask more than that to rent the stadium? Argentina would also have to spend on upgrades in illumination, bathrooms, concession stands, locker rooms, etc. Difficult but it can be done.

- Jaguares doesn’t break even on match days so this could be an area where the revenue could actually increase. Can you find more than 6.000 fans between Argentine expats and the local rugby scene? British fans would also love to spend their weekend in Madrid watching their team.

- Our players would welcome the change. No need to put their lives on hold like it happens with Pampas XV. The money would be better so they could take their families with them. The older most expensive players can play elsewhere to cut costs.

- Sanctioning is pretty straightforward. Spain is in a great bargaining position so they could ask the world to the UAR: an yearly fee, quotas for local players, improvements for the stadium, test matches, youth test matches, tours, coaching clinics, etc.

- Sponsorship revenue would suffer but you could compensate part of that loss with local partners.

- Renting a training base could be pricey as well

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 21:45

If, and only if, they were serious about this, the door to knock is Atlético de Madrid. They share Nike with UAR, have always been linked to South America and Argentina, are being well managed in recent times and more open to changes than Real Madrid and FC Barcelona. A new smaller stadium is equally expected to be built near Wanda Metropolitano. It's only a personal opinion, but I have worked with them through some sponsors, I have attended non-soccer events at Wanda Metropolitano and Vicente Calderón, they accepted the failed Classic All Blacks game... FER won't be an obstacle.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 22:07

Man, I don't see any sense in this. If PRO14 plays in two South African cities without direct flights to Europe (connections needed always), WHY they can't play in Buenos Aires???? It is basicaly the same damn thing.

Buenos Aires-London: 13h30 (direct flight)
Jo'burg-London: 11h30 + connection to Port Elizabeth or Bloemfontein. Same thing!

(using London because it is the obvious hub)

You still can make a partnership with a team like Kings or Dragons (or Force in Super Rugby) to send another 15 players.
Last edited by victorsra on Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 22:12

Pro 14 would benefit from a London presence. Maybe put them in London.

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