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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 22:13

Why???? Who will watch them there? Will you rent The Stoop to play for basicaly the rival club supporters and a couple of hundred Argies?

Man, I don't see any sense in this. If PRO14 plays in two South African cities without direct flights to Europe (connections needed always), WHY they can't play in Buenos Aires???? It is basicaly the same damn thing.

Buenos Aires-London: 13h30 (direct flight)
Jo'burg-London: 11h30 + connection to Port Elizabeth or Bloemfontein. Same thing!

(using London because it is the obvious hub)


And why?
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 22:56

victorsra wrote:Man, I don't see any sense in this. If PRO14 plays in two South African cities without direct flights to Europe (connections needed always), WHY they can't play in Buenos Aires???? It is basicaly the same damn thing.

Long-haul flights are out of the question in this climate. Especially when you don’t move the needle financially. South Africa at least is coming with a substantial TV deal. The UAR has to be creative. The suits in Pro14 have been talking about Spain for the last five years. Maybe we can give them an in without the logical worries about the team's competitiveness. If they could find a private investor, it would be the best alternative available at the moment.

victorsra wrote:You still can make a partnership with a team like Kings or Dragons (or Force in Super Rugby) to send another 15 players.

They tried this in 2016. Teams were not interested.
Last edited by carbonero on Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 23:05

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Pro 14 would benefit from a London presence. Maybe put them in London.

That team should be London Irish, they would really bringing some money.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 23:06

carbonero wrote:
victorsra wrote:Man, I don't see any sense in this. If PRO14 plays in two South African cities without direct flights to Europe (connections needed always), WHY they can't play in Buenos Aires???? It is basicaly the same damn thing.

Long-haul flights are out of the question in this climate. Especially when you don’t move the needle financially. South Africa at least is coming with a substantial TV deal. The UAR has to be creative. The suits in Pro14 have been talking about Spain for the last five years. Maybe we have give them an in without the logical worries about the team's competitiveness. If they could find a private investor, it would be the best alternative available at the moment.

victorsra wrote:You still can make a partnership with a team like Kings or Dragons (or Force in Super Rugby) to send another 15 players.

They tried this in 2016. Teams were not interested.

But in 2016 you already had the Jaguares. What exactly UAR was offering? If they are offering Pumas with UAR paying part of the salaries, come on.... if there is a global calendar, it is like heaven for teams like those.

I don't know much South African TV is paying and I'd like to know because Kings and Cheetahs are not that interesting for TV and it would be incredible if they offered more audience than Argentina (and both currencies are equaly bad...).

What I'm saying is if Cheetahs and Kings will be on PRO14 like before, traveling those distances, there is no reason to have a different situation for Argentina - and you don't lose the work done by UAR in promoting the brand in the domestic market. And better than this, you can leave Velez and play in a smaller place, because PRO14 has no problem with smaller venues.

This situation only changes if PRO14 closes the door to South Africa travels. Otherwise, there is no reason to have a different approach towards Argentina.

BTW, for Pumas players 13h30 with only 4 timezones is much better than going to South Africa or Oceania.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 22 Jun 2020, 23:56

It's not only South African TV money, it's the logistics of touring to face two teams instead of a single one.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 00:45

victorsra wrote:But in 2016 you already had the Jaguares. What exactly UAR was offering?

They knew that the player base was too small with only one team so they offered Jaguares players to other franchises. They even offered to cover part of their salaries. No one was interested.

victorsra wrote:I don't know much South African TV is paying and I'd like to know because Kings and Cheetahs are not that interesting for TV and it would be incredible if they offered more audience than Argentina (and both currencies are equaly bad...).

The reported figure was £ 6 million per year. Imagine when they add the other four.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 00:54

Different times. They would be getting unproved getting Argentina XV players.

Now we are in an economic crisis. If UAR offers top proper Pumas players and pay their salaries, come on, it is win-win deal. A team like Dragons or Kings would be cutting costs and boosting the level of their squad. And UAR wouldn't need to build a franchise from scratch in a risky venture.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 01:00

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Pro 14 would benefit from a London presence. Maybe put them in London.


Why? I mean, I get your reasoning but London already has enough teams.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 01:12

One real problem about Spain is that they aren't Celtic Rugby Ltd stakeowners, which means such team would be PRO14 guests only. An Argentine-Spanish venture would face the "Sunwolves situation", probably having to pay to play or not having a proper share. And with no access to the Heineken Champions Cup.

Another possibility is Italy. FIR is now (and only now!) a full stakeowner of PRO14 (they werent until now) and was talking about a 3rd team, because they dont cover major Italian markets with Zebre and Benetton now. A pretty logical deal would be UAR joining forces with them. And have access to the Heineken Champions Cup.

FIR owns Zebre and struggles. If they open a bid for a 3rd Italian team, even if they find a private investor, FIR will definitely need to fund partialy it (like they also do with Benetton). But FIR doesn't have money (but has the seat in PRO14's board and a share now). There enters UAR and its players.

Or, in a crisis moment like now, maybe the best solution for Italy is to make Benetton basically the national team, with no foreign players, and rent Zebre as part Pumas part young Italians, saving money and getting better results.

If I were FIR, this second option is sweet to save money now. Plus Italy still has a (semi) pro league as back up. Let's call it a "Jaguares-and -a-half-like" solution for Italy.
Last edited by victorsra on Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 01:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 01:23

Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Pro 14 would benefit from a London presence. Maybe put them in London.


Why? I mean, I get your reasoning but London already has enough teams.

Wont happen until PRO14 has the same braodcast deala as Premiership. I'm pretty sure London Irish won't chose a poorer league....
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Re: South American rugby

Postby iul » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 05:36

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Pro 14 would benefit from a London presence. Maybe put them in London.


Why? I mean, I get your reasoning but London already has enough teams.

Wont happen until PRO14 has the same braodcast deala as Premiership. I'm pretty sure London Irish won't chose a poorer league....

Having a guaranteed spot instead of fighting against relegation could prove attractive

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 07:54

The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 08:27

sk 88 wrote:The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.


From next season London Irish will be playing in Brentford in West London, Harlequins are in South West London, and Saracens are in North London (obviously out of the Premiership for a season). It would be great if there was a South East London team in the Premiership but that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
But in terms of there being a Pro 14 club in "London" (if the RFU allowed it), Reading's Madejski stadium is probably the best option because it's close to Heathrow airport and rugby supporters there have just lost London Irish. If London Scottish was to become Scotland's third professional team now would be the time to do it, before Reading's rugby supporters find something else to do.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 15:05

sk 88 wrote:The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.


Actually you need less.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 15:16

The risk of relegation is not enough, as Premiership can simply expand to 13 or something like this. But there is one point that might help the PRO14 cause: CVC. But this is an empty statement from me, because I can't see why CVC would do such move between the leagues they partialy control now.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 15:33

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sk 88 wrote:The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.


From next season London Irish will be playing in Brentford in West London, Harlequins are in South West London, and Saracens are in North London (obviously out of the Premiership for a season). It would be great if there was a South East London team in the Premiership but that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
But in terms of there being a Pro 14 club in "London" (if the RFU allowed it), Reading's Madejski stadium is probably the best option because it's close to Heathrow airport and rugby supporters there have just lost London Irish. If London Scottish was to become Scotland's third professional team now would be the time to do it, before Reading's rugby supporters find something else to do.


The closest professional team to London will be London Irish because of the Brentford location after years in the suburban wilderness but you are right, there is a great need for South East London. Kudos to Quins for never moving from the South West but geographically they will be in direct competition with Irish in regards for players for the Academies etc... and any aspirational player west of Putney.

West and SW London used to be crowded with top teams but with 2 it should be manageable. there are good clubs in the lower leagues in the East and South East but they need a team they can channel their players.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 19:07

TheStroBro wrote:
sk 88 wrote:The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.


Actually you need less.


In a city of 8m people (at least) we need less than the 2 clubs we already have ..... right. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 22:41

Colombia with good news, getting more investment from government to their rugby. They plan new development centres. I tell you: Colombia is in the right path to let Brazil behind in like a decade. They have less money but seems to do better choices. https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/fu ... -3?nid=432 I hope Colombia doesn't lose its way in a SLAR trap. It is very important their Cafeteros project doesn't drain their development money.

Meanwhile, Sudamerica Rugby talked about Bolivian women's rugby, nice: https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/se ... -3?nid=434
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 23:44

victorsra wrote:Colombia with good news, getting more investment from government to their rugby. They plan new development centres. I tell you: Colombia is in the right path to let Brazil behind in like a decade. They have less money but seems to do better choices. https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/fu ... -3?nid=432 I hope Colombia doesn't lose its way in a SLAR trap. It is very important their Cafeteros project doesn't drain their development money.

Meanwhile, Sudamerica Rugby talked about Bolivian women's rugby, nice: https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/se ... -3?nid=434


That is really awesome to see, surprised I missed it.

$300,000 is a huge amount of money for a small sports org down there. For context, $1500 per month in Medellin would be considered a decent salary. I could see them spending $15,000 / year or less on those 3 coaches.

And then the fact that they’re creating “developmental centers” in other regions is key. These are probably just semi-regular training sessions hosted by HP coaches but this is great for spreading the game outside of Antioquia.

I’m really proud of what the union is doing in Colombia. They recognize that they are a tier 3 country so they build up a pathway to grow the sport and think of the future. They are making wise choices and having key partnerships with the government to help them grow. And they have been really active during the pandemic hosting tons of virtual training sessions for players, coaches, fans and even journalists (as it says in the article).

And for anyone curious, this is the main field in Medellin that they reference (all of these are recent renovations). It is a public rugby specific field.

https://www.inder.gov.co/es/sala-de-prensa/noticias/858

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 06:35

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sk 88 wrote:The RFU have to approve a club to play in England. They aren't going to approve a club in a rival league to the Premiership. This has been gone over ever time someone who doesn't understand suggests it. We do need more pro teams in London, particularly east London, but thanks to PRL cartel the best we will ever get is some relocating there. Maybe Falcons for the lols.


From next season London Irish will be playing in Brentford in West London, Harlequins are in South West London, and Saracens are in North London (obviously out of the Premiership for a season). It would be great if there was a South East London team in the Premiership but that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
But in terms of there being a Pro 14 club in "London" (if the RFU allowed it), Reading's Madejski stadium is probably the best option because it's close to Heathrow airport and rugby supporters there have just lost London Irish. If London Scottish was to become Scotland's third professional team now would be the time to do it, before Reading's rugby supporters find something else to do.

Agree, adding London Irish and Scottish to the league would add money and fans, as many of the Irish and Scottish supporters would love to take the wifes to London for weekend.
Scottish should be looking to use the new Plough Lane in Wimbledon. Not far for the core fans, affluent area and the stadium is about the right size.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 11:14

Higgik wrote:Agree, adding London Irish and Scottish to the league would add money and fans, as many of the Irish and Scottish supporters would love to take the wifes to London for weekend.
Scottish should be looking to use the new Plough Lane in Wimbledon. Not far for the core fans, affluent area and the stadium is about the right size.



Based on what? Their average attendance of 1373 people in 2018/19? I have my doubts away fans will bring that number up significantly.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 15:22

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 15:49

victorsra wrote:Interview with Piñeyrua.... https://hablemosderugby.com/2020/06/25/ ... %9f%8c%b2/


He said "who would invest in a professional franchise in Brazil, Chile, Uruguay....? and we made it". Well, nobody invested in the Brazilian franchise!
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 17:47

They barely discussed the ARC question....
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 19:53

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Higgik wrote:Agree, adding London Irish and Scottish to the league would add money and fans, as many of the Irish and Scottish supporters would love to take the wifes to London for weekend.
Scottish should be looking to use the new Plough Lane in Wimbledon. Not far for the core fans, affluent area and the stadium is about the right size.



Based on what? Their average attendance of 1373 people in 2018/19? I have my doubts away fans will bring that number up significantly.

They would significantly increase if they were in Pro14. Those figures are for Championship and is one of the biggest apart from Newcastle. Easily get that to mid range Pro14 levels.

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