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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 21:36

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 19:29

FPR mentions in its Strategic Plan for 2020-24 that they are negotiating the creation of a Latin Cup under World Rugby umbrella. So it seems the plan outlined by Piñeyrúa is there:
https://sportlomo-userupload.s3.amazona ... b84363.pdf

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 20:21

Man, we need a WR calendar. There are to many things in the air....
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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 15:22

So this Latin Rugby Cup would replace the Americas Rugby Championship. How would it look like?

Option 1 would be a 6-team tournament, with Argentina XV, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, Spain and Portugal.

Option 2 would be a 8-team tournament, with an American group of Argentina XV, Uruguay, Brazil and Chile, and a European group of Spain, Portugal, Romania and Italy XV.

But when would it be played? It can't clash with the European or South American championships, nor the July and November windows.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 15:40

Well, Latin Cup is a bad idea. North America is a much better market for the future....

Anyway, I guess Belgium and Switzerland could apply for the Latin Cup as well.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 15:44

Last time I heard about the Latin Cup it included Georgia, which isn't Latin. USA South is a bit Latin.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 16:25

well, technicaly even Canada can be Latin. But, well, the idea of Latin Cup is an alternative to the eventual end of the ARC, so they woudn't be in the plans anyway....
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 17:10

victorsra wrote:well, technicaly even Canada can be Latin. But, well, the idea of Latin Cup is an alternative to the eventual end of the ARC, so they woudn't be in the plans anyway....


So the Latin Cup can be exactly the same as the ARC, but in Latin.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 17:19

Armchair Fan wrote:FPR mentions in its Strategic Plan for 2020-24 that they are negotiating the creation of a Latin Cup under World Rugby umbrella. So it seems the plan outlined by Piñeyrúa is there:
https://sportlomo-userupload.s3.amazona ... b84363.pdf


So he wants to kill the ARC, which is a WR funded competition, but wants to replace it with another WR funded competition? His mind must be an interesting place.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 17:37

Not the same. USA and Canada are better markets than Spain and Portugal and North America brings more ESPN interest.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 17:47

victorsra wrote:Not the same. USA and Canada are better markets than Spain and Portugal and North America brings more ESPN interest.


Why have the US when you can have a country that peaks at Rugby Europe U18s???

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 19:20

As opposed to the US that peaks in… :D

victorsra wrote:Not the same. USA and Canada are better markets than Spain and Portugal and North America brings more ESPN interest.

Why would ESPN stay with the ARC though? Those games are destined for ESPN 3 in South America (plus streaming in North America). There isn’t any return on investment. I think they were already out with the move to August.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 19:56

Why would ESPN have any national teams matches apart from the Pumas? The fact they are putting ARC on TV is much more than you cold expect for any competition involving Teros, Tupis, Condores... and this includes the away matches! The only reason why we watch on TV away Teros, Condores and Tupis matches is because they are n North America. Don't expect to watch a Latin Cup on TV, specialy if played in Europe. Unless someone pays for its production. And that's the main point: ESPN pays the whole production. That's a huge investment already. it does return to South American rugby because we have free exposition (not only live matches, but also on SportsCenter and etc). At least here other TVs charge CBRu to produce and broadcast Tupis matches.

The move to August was to benefit MLR and SLAR. Wouldn't affect ESPN showing it.

It is realy a bad idea to give up from a safe stable situation with ARC to navigate uncertain waters in uncertain times.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 20:06

Anyway, WR pays ARC. Beaumont's administration has no reason to invest in such Latin Cup. Unless they are planing to send USA and Canada for an expanded Pacific Nations Cup. In this case, USA and Canada are winners, getting rid of South America to play Japan and Fiji. And we lose exposition doing a Renegades Cup, swaping two RWC teams with a league in expansion for two non-RWC countries that struggle to get pro. Great. Let's send a letter congratulating the genious behind it.

(with all respect for Spain and Portugal, I'd love to play both teams every year in a Nations Cup, for exemple.... which doesn't REPLACE the ARC, only completes and boosts the calendar)
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 20:19

Why would ESPN pay for production anymore? That bet clearly didn’t pay off. If they are out, the ARC just got much more expensive.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 20:23

Why they would cut it? It was going pretty well, nothing less than the expected (ESPN isn't dumb to believe it would boom quickly). It is Sudamerica's mumbo jumbo North America doesn't care about it. It is a competition built for a long term. To believe it is worthless is pure short-termism.

BTW, wasn't Sudamerica Rugby pushing for a closer relation between MLR and SLAR this year? It is purely political this new "crisis". An imature reaction to Canada's vote (which USA has nothing to do with).
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 21:07

It doesn’t generate money. And the upside isn't there profit-wise. The same reason why they didn’t invest in SLAR. Riccomi said the other day that he had to pay for the production of the games.

According to Chans, ESPN invested US$ 1 million in the ARC > https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/pr ... -201624500

How can Pichot justify that level of investment to his bosses? They probably have to spend even more money in the next cycle because all the unions are broke.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for the ARC to continue. North American home based squads are better than what Portugal or Spain have to offer in August-September. However, without ESPN, the future of the competition is compromised.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 21:26

Nothing involving Teros, Condores and Tupis wil generate money (profit) now.

1 milion is pretty much. ESPN made us don't waste 1 million searching for broadcast. And we got access to a global chain that has more than just live matches (access in a long-term project). This is awesome in T2 rugby world. Very good deal for the product. You won't have anything better with a Latin Cup.

The thing is, without a World League, the Latin Cup is a good thing for July/November. Not a replacement for the ARC. The argument of one OR the other doesn't fit. Specialy with the fact Spanish and Portuguese clubs follow the European season and those countries won't give up from the REC. Unless you expect to see the in SLAR and I woudn't plan based on this idea.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:18

I’m saying that ESPN won't invest again in the ARC. How do you plan to replace that money?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:20

carbonero wrote:I’m saying that ESPN won't invest again in the ARC. How do you plan to replace that money?

Why they won't invest again? We only need them to not charge the unions to broadcast it.

And even if they give up from showing it, we'd have the same costs we have for ARC with Latin Cup. What's the advantage? It is much better to have a good long-term relationship with USA, thinking about how useful can MLR be. What the Canadian Rugby Union does is irrelevant (btw, now they are also irrelevant for MLR, Toronto Arrows walks by its own). You have too many options in the table for the future. It is only needed to act by reason, patience and long-term vision, and not with empty words like "betrayal" in mind.

Is it more realistic and safe to believe in Spanish/Portuguese franchises in SLAR as the future, justifying a Latin Cup replacing (why not combined with?) ARC for the national team? Let's call it "bold".
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:50

BTW, Sudamerica's arrogance about the ARC is realy annoying.

- Has Argentina XV won all ARC's easily? No, they lost the title to USA twice. This means the teams USA are using are good enough, do their job and will only get better if ARC is played without clashing with MLR, while MLR gets better. Much more challenging for Argentina XV than the South American Championship or the Latin Cup...

- Has Uruguay been ARC champions? Never. So this competition is good enough for them;

- Has Chile defeated Canada? Never. So, whatever team Canada send, is challenging enough for Chile;

I'm not seeing anyone in Brazil complaining about ARC, because it was the best thing that happened to us. We won against USA and Canada and we don't care if they weren't full strenght. That was awesome for our marketing.... if someone in Brazil believes ARC is not good enough for us, well, it is just a jackass.
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:53

If they don’t charge the unions, ESPN is picking up the tab. That is the form of their investment. Do you think the CBRU or USA Rugby have extra money lying around to take care of production?

The tournament doesn’t generate ratings. Argentina XV matches used to be in basic cable. Now they are buried in the digital package. No ratings, no profit. In the biggest economic collapse the region has ever seen. And with your core market probably scoring a double digit recession. It is a no-brainer that ESPN Sur would divest from the ARC. Especially considering that the upside that Chans describes in his article will never materialize.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 22:57

carbonero wrote:If they don’t charge the unions, ESPN is picking up the tab. That is the form of their investment. Do you think the CBRU or USA Rugby have extra money lying around to take care of production?

The tournament doesn’t generate ratings. Argentina XV matches used to be in basic cable. Now they are buried in the digital package. No ratings, no profit. In the biggest economic collapse the region has ever seen. And with your core market probably scoring a double digit recession. It is a no-brainer that ESPN Sur would divest from the ARC. Especially considering that the upside that Chans describes in his article will never materialize.


Of course those union they don't have $. That's why it is a perfect deal what we have now with ESPN. And we won't have anything better with the Latin Cup. It will cost the same or more! The Latin Cup won't generate any better ratings either.

The problem is not USA and Canada and the solution is not Spain or Portugal. The problem is tiny Uruguay, unreliable Chile and disappointing Brazil. We don't generate interest. And I DOUBT ESPN was thinking they would get ratings. They know it is a long-term investment, be sure of that. I know we are entering a crisis, but this is a deal with the 3 ESPNs (USA, Sur, Brazil) and as long it dosn't lose money it is fine.

What's the reference that shows ESPN is abandoning the ship and wanting to charge us? A non-Sudamerica Rugby reference.
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 23:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Jul 2020, 23:05

Oh, and if ESPN is giving up, why the fuck Sudamerica Rugby is doing SLAR? Isn't Piñeyrua telling everybody SLAR is awesome and has ESPN as partner? Only ESPN Sur, without North American ESPN. Big contradiction or suddenly SLAR is a golden egg duck in the middle of the economic crisis? Come on. If Uruguay, Chile, Brazil cannot make ARC interesting, a mere 5-rounds competition (that should receive a boost as RWC Qualy), how someone will believe SLAR will make it? SLAR that needs MUCH more money, because they must pay damn professional salaries and etc.

If it is to cut money, cut SLAR, send players to MLR and Europe, and make ARC a priority to save because your national teams are always your number 1 product. And if Latin Cup is a nice idea and viable, make it in July/November. "ARC or Latin Cup" is a fallacy.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Thu, 02 Jul 2020, 02:35

I don’t have any inside. I’m just joining the dots. What is the upside for ESPN/UAR? Pichot thought he could create Super Rugby franchises out of the ARC. That is why he was willing to take a loss. Now that ship has sailed. There is no reason to keep the investment.

The ARC might survive the chop. WR still has to rule on RWC qualification. But the outlook doesn’t look good without private backing.

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