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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 01:54

ficcp wrote:Only Uruguay had a full tournament. The other 3 countries had not any activity. Argentina XV has a complete different squad, the onlu puma participating in Uruguay was Ortega Desio.


Right and if it was pushed to November would it have made any difference for the other countries? Would they have been playing club rugby?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 03:06

Pichulonko wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:Apart from the broadcast only in the app (it sould be public on YouTube), Sudamerica Rugby realy improved in the comunications. It was outstanding the content during the South American Championship, the best of all continental confederations, that's for sure. I was a critic, but the work we saw this month shows they are in the right path. SLAR would be well promoted next year. It is only a matter to see it on TV.


Yes, this along with the success of Chile shows that it was very worthwhile to have this tournament. Would’ve loved for Colombia and Paraguay to get involved too but that would complicate things a bit.


I honestly think it should have been in November. I think they rushed a bit. Maybe with the fear of a new COVID19 wave in Uruguay eventualy.

Uruguay vs Argentina link https://youtu.be/woakUbuQVLg


Victor you are forgetting that the tournament was already pushed back to October as it was originally scheduled for September.

True. But maybe a couple more weeks would be better.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 03:07

Tobar wrote:What would the extra 1-2 months do? Are the other unions returning to play? It sounds like Brazil hasn’t even returned to play at all.

I thought the original reason was so that Argentina could get some warm up matches for some players before heading to the rugby championship. But now their players are already in Australia.


There is zero rugby in Brazil going on. Pandemics hits us hard as you know.

The difference would've been more training, maybe a "Problable vs Possibles" match series, something like this. The thing is there will be nothing going on in November anyway.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 04:23

Great tournament for Chile. Uruguay came a bit unstuck in the end. Brazil looking a bit inconsistent, but the truth is this has been a very disrupted schedule of games. We'll now a bit more about where things actually stand for these teams hopefully next year when things start returning to normal. A lot of positives for Chile though, it's really hard to say otherwise. They've clearly made a lot of big steps in a very short period of time, which is great to see because at one stage they looked like they were going to be forever stuck near the bottom of the ARC nations. They simply look more professional and more athletic now than what they did 2 years ago. I must also say I like the look of the jersey too, a nice wine red colour.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 19:00

It was a big challenge for the chilean players, they kept their physical condition individually most of the time. The only preparatoty game was a match of probables vs possibles before to move to Uruguay. The HC and the tecnical staff did a very good job, it is a much more competitive team now. We need more games against T2 countries to keep improving.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 19:37

There have been test matches played against some of the best T2 nations over the past few years. Starting off with frequent adversaries Canada, USA and Uruguay. From Europe there have been recent matches against Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal and Germany. The Condores have also managed to face Hong Kong, Kenya and South Korea. So it's fair to say that Chile is playing against T2 countries consistently, only thing missing is a tour involving Tonga, Samoa, and why not Fiji.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 02:18

I meant matches against rivals out of Sudamericano and ARC. Chile played 1 in 2015 (against Spain), 2 in 2016 (against Korea), 4 in 2017 (3 in Hong Kong Cup plus Germany), 1 in 2018 (Maories) and 3 in 2019 (Romania, Spain and Portugal). That is not consistently for me, 11 games in 5 years! I have to recognize that the quality of the Condores was not very attractive for foreign teams until 2019. I expect the current team to show a much better level in next ARC compared with the teams from 2016 to 2019.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 05:45

You are forgetting that since 2015 Chile has five matches during the ARC and another three in the Sudamericano. Then during the international windows they try to play two or three matches making it a total of at least ten matches for the year. That is a lot of international play compared to just a few years ago where Chile would partake of only two test matches all year.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ferrari1000 » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 06:11

It seems like Chile is making some progress and they are starting to have a competitive team. Actually, I would love to see a test match Georgia vs Chile over here (well if we were allowed on the stadiums, or in Chile if traveling was back to normal :D). I attended the game Georgia A vs Brazil and it was quite enjoyable.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 13:56

Remember in 2020 there wasn't supposed to be a Sudamericano. Sudamerica Rugby had ended the competition, it was supposed to be dead. It was revived just to allow more matches after the pandemics, as the ARC was cancelled.

In fact, the idea to revive the Sudamerica was brought back after Pichot's defeat as you remember. But the 2020 calendar anounced early in the year had no Sudamericano. The reason is SLAR and ARC making it redundant.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 19:03

ferrari1000 wrote:It seems like Chile is making some progress and they are starting to have a competitive team. Actually, I would love to see a test match Georgia vs Chile over here (well if we were allowed on the stadiums, or in Chile if traveling was back to normal :D). I attended the game Georgia A vs Brazil and it was quite enjoyable.


Chile defeated Georgia(without some key players) in Santiago 30-24 back in 2004. The Development of the georgian team since then has been huge, so a competive match today could be against Georgia A. I hope it will be possible in the post COVID era.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 29 Oct 2020, 18:10

Hourcade has changed his view on the Chileans.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CG6CfT9j_pK ... kih3xtayx3

A nice change from his original view:

https://rugbynoticias.cl/hourcade-el-ru ... ompromiso/

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Thu, 29 Oct 2020, 21:15

Hourcade's original quote happened during an interview in Colimbian radio. He was praising the Colombian Union to no end, rightfully so because he gets paid to develop high perdormance rugby there. Anyhow he couldn't help himself compare Colombia's approach to Chile's, not without wiping the floor with their rugby.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Thu, 29 Oct 2020, 22:02

Horcade´s appreciation was right but he missed very important elements when he compared Rugby in Chile with Rugby in Uruguay and Argentina. The structure established by these 2 countries for amateur Rugby could not be compared with the chilean one. Nor Argentina neither Uruguay changed 5 times the HC in 5 years, they had long term objectives for the clubs , the players and the national teams which Chile did not have. The amateur players are the owners of their time and they decide how to use it. If the Union could not provide a long term plan with clear objectives , the lack of interest from the players was logical.

Professionalism brought a complete different situation, SELKNAM is a good base for the Condores but not the only reason of the improvement. The approach of the amateur players changed towards more commitment and a fifferent attitude in and off the field. IMO the change was generated by a much better Management with more creativity and efficiency. we are following a similar path established by Argentina and Uruguay long time ago. I hope the attitude, commitment and results will improve also with the U 20 and U 18 teams.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Hernan14 » Thu, 29 Oct 2020, 22:45

ficcp wrote:Horcade´s appreciation was right but he missed very important elements when he compared Rugby in Chile with Rugby in Uruguay and Argentina. The structure established by these 2 countries for amateur Rugby could not be compared with the chilean one. Nor Argentina neither Uruguay changed 5 times the HC in 5 years, they had long term objectives for the clubs , the players and the national teams which Chile did not have. The amateur players are the owners of their time and they decide how to use it. If the Union could not provide a long term plan with clear objectives , the lack of interest from the players was logical.

Professionalism brought a complete different situation, SELKNAM is a good base for the Condores but not the only reason of the improvement. The approach of the amateur players changed towards more commitment and a fifferent attitude in and off the field. IMO the change was generated by a much better Management with more creativity and efficiency. we are following a similar path established by Argentina and Uruguay long time ago. I hope the attitude, commitment and results will improve also with the U 20 and U 18 teams.


He actually mentions it, that's what he means by structural changes, with that, basically expresses the need for long term objectives.

In the same way, although chauvinism sometimes clouds minds, when you say "the amateur players are the owners of their time and they decide how to use it", that is what it expresses with the lack of commitment, and why him considered the Rugby in Chile as more Social than Amateur. Social rugby, like any other sport practiced in a social way, is always less committed than the amateur practice, I don't know any amateur athlete who mis a match of his team because that day just don't want to do it, however, I know hundreds who have left their teammates "en banda" in a social match :lol:

And anyway, it also mentions in the note: "Está bien, es un camino elegido, pero algunos quieren otra cosa, más parecido a esto. Cuesta más." "No es que sea un desastre pero va a llevar más tiempo encauzarlo" " "Pero en Chile están entusiasmadísimos con las franquicias. Hay que hacer cambios estructurales, es ambicioso pero conseguible."

Lo escribo en castellano, no sé porque tomaron tan mal la nota en su momento, era un realidad, y solo comenta una situación y hasta las ganas de muchos de modificar dicha situacón. A veces las críticas pueden ser constructivas, no veo que diga el Rugby que se juega en Chile es un desastre sin arreglo alguno ni capacidad de mejora, no, plantea una diferencia de base (social/amateur), necesaria para poder saber que modificar, y al mismo tiempo que por obvias razones puede ser más trabajoso pero no imposible...

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 02:24

Meanwhile Brazil has no goals for its clubs. Maybe only in 2021 we'll a system with some logic behind. I hope. Only now a proper discussion was realy done. Until 2019 the basic idea was national team as the centre of everything.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 03:19

Pichulonko wrote:Hourcade's original quote happened during an interview in Colimbian radio. He was praising the Colombian Union to no end, rightfully so because he gets paid to develop high perdormance rugby there. Anyhow he couldn't help himself compare Colombia's approach to Chile's, not without wiping the floor with their rugby.


He gets paid by the union to develop rugby in the whole continent, not just Colombia.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 03:53

The Argentines that came to Brazil played a crucial role perfecting our high performance system and Hourcade had a credit with this, for sure. But nothing was properly achieved at club level. Our club reality is not properly understood by them as it is extremely different from Argentine/Uruguayan/Chilean/Paraguayan reality.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 05:05

What lessons are being learn in Brazil from Chile and Uruguay though? There has to be people in charge looking at the gains that are being made by both of their neighbours and looking to see how it can be implemented in Brazil. The more each nations learn about each others strengths and weaknesses the better it is for the sport across the continent.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 06:16

Australia Select v Argentina, the whole video (if they don't cancel it)


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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 17:04

thatrugbyguy wrote:What lessons are being learn in Brazil from Chile and Uruguay though? There has to be people in charge looking at the gains that are being made by both of their neighbours and looking to see how it can be implemented in Brazil. The more each nations learn about each others strengths and weaknesses the better it is for the sport across the continent.


Almost nothing. You see, the biggest difference is that Uruguay and Chile (just like Argentina) are based on decades (even century) old clubs (upper class clubs) that own their rugby fields, club houses... some have links to schools and are multisports clubs close to communities (rich communities). Nothing of this applies to Brazil.

Brazilian clubs are newer (some older than the 1980s, but most of them from 1990s and 2000s) and basicaly none of them own fields (only 1 club owns a field, the São Paulo Athletic Club, founded in 1888 by the British). Our biggest clubs either rent fields or have partnerships with state/federal universities or municipalities to use public areas (and those are the most succesful, as usualy they have some stability).For exemple, the whole city of São Paulo has only 3 rugby-only fields (1 private, 1 at an university and 1 public), used by more than 30 clubs... any Uruguayan club owns more fields than the whole city of São Paulo. Our clubs have very weak ties with local communities, as they can't offer much.

The good exemples here are in smaller cities that can have a better use of public clubs and partners with the local government. But if you use public areas, you must return to community. In Brazil, to poor communities, usualy, as they are the reason the government is offering space to a sports club. This means that most clubs have now a good source of players and families to support them, but definitly not rich. Uruguayan and Chilean clubs are mostly upper class.

In Brazil, rugby is absent from upper class sports clubs. And Brazilian metropolis are killing social sports clubs. Due to urban violence, middle classes live in buildings that have swimming pools, gyms and etc... people usualy aren't anymore members of social sports clubs.... in Argentina, Uruguay and Chile the club culture is alive and much stronger. Our anti-urbanism kills clubs. Brazil has an anti-community approach of urbanism, extremely individualistic. In the other hand, poor communities have a ridiculous lack of green areas or sports areas.

Smaller cities usualy offer better opportunities for rugby clubs, but still people in smaller cities don't support local clubs as they should.... you can see this watching lower division football in Brazil.

In the end, the best we can do is to learn from exemples worldwide and adapt them to our reality (but not particularly Chile or Uruguay), finding creative solutions.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 00:17

Its true that the British and French clubs and schools alike are the backbone of Chilean rugby given the decades since they've established themselves but to argue that rugby in Chile is practiced mainly by these same clubs is a fallacy.

Rugby in Chile changed with the arrival of the French coach Jean Pierre Juanchich that took it upon himself to spread the sport all over Chile taking it out of its hotbed in Santiago and Viña del Mar. Such was his success in doing so that from the time Juanchich arrived in Chile there were only 14 clubs all with an elitist British (and French) background, practiced only by the wealthiest and most accommodated communities. By the time he was through in the mid 80s, Chile had more than 140 established clubs from all across the country practiced by people from all walks of life. Biggest testament to this effort is powerhouse Rugby Club Troncos, founded in Concepción in the late 70s. They have absolutely no ties to the British school system yet they play in Chile's top flight division owning their own stadium and facilities.

The growth of rugby in Chile is in such a rise that regional unions are getting stronger each year, also creating a need to expand. Such is the case with Rancagua (1hr south of Santiago) which has found the need to break away from ARUSA (Santiago Rugby Union) because they now have enough clubs (none of which are British) to form a union of their own.

Where do they play? What facilities do they use? In Chile most stadiums, big and small, are owned by the government. These are made available for anyone who wishes to make use of them. Every stadium from Estadio Nacional to the small field down the street from your house. In other words there is no shortage of places to practice rugby.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 01:41

Hernan14 wrote:
ficcp wrote:Horcade´s appreciation was right but he missed very important elements when he compared Rugby in Chile with Rugby in Uruguay and Argentina. The structure established by these 2 countries for amateur Rugby could not be compared with the chilean one. Nor Argentina neither Uruguay changed 5 times the HC in 5 years, they had long term objectives for the clubs , the players and the national teams which Chile did not have. The amateur players are the owners of their time and they decide how to use it. If the Union could not provide a long term plan with clear objectives , the lack of interest from the players was logical.

Professionalism brought a complete different situation, SELKNAM is a good base for the Condores but not the only reason of the improvement. The approach of the amateur players changed towards more commitment and a fifferent attitude in and off the field. IMO the change was generated by a much better Management with more creativity and efficiency. we are following a similar path established by Argentina and Uruguay long time ago. I hope the attitude, commitment and results will improve also with the U 20 and U 18 teams.


He actually mentions it, that's what he means by structural changes, with that, basically expresses the need for long term objectives.

In the same way, although chauvinism sometimes clouds minds, when you say "the amateur players are the owners of their time and they decide how to use it", that is what it expresses with the lack of commitment, and why him considered the Rugby in Chile as more Social than Amateur. Social rugby, like any other sport practiced in a social way, is always less committed than the amateur practice, I don't know any amateur athlete who mis a match of his team because that day just don't want to do it, however, I know hundreds who have left their teammates "en banda" in a social match :lol:

And anyway, it also mentions in the note: "Está bien, es un camino elegido, pero algunos quieren otra cosa, más parecido a esto. Cuesta más." "No es que sea un desastre pero va a llevar más tiempo encauzarlo" " "Pero en Chile están entusiasmadísimos con las franquicias. Hay que hacer cambios estructurales, es ambicioso pero conseguible."

Lo escribo en castellano, no sé porque tomaron tan mal la nota en su momento, era un realidad, y solo comenta una situación y hasta las ganas de muchos de modificar dicha situacón. A veces las críticas pueden ser constructivas, no veo que diga el Rugby que se juega en Chile es un desastre sin arreglo alguno ni capacidad de mejora, no, plantea una diferencia de base (social/amateur), necesaria para poder saber que modificar, y al mismo tiempo que por obvias razones puede ser más trabajoso pero no imposible...


Hernán : no le tengo miedo a las críticas, de hecho yo he sido un crítico de como se ha manejado el Rugby en Chile, aunque reconozco que el nombramiento de Lemoine y la definición de objetivos fue un acierto (anterior administración) y sumarse al profesionalismo, proveer mas recursos para la alta competencia y diseñar planes de largo plazo ha sido un gran acierto de la actual directiva, que ha entusiasmado a los jugadores.

Creo que Hourcade erró al comparar la situación de Chile con Argentina y Uruguay porque la profundidad del Rugby en esos 2 países y su estructura eran (y aun son) incomparables con las de Chile. URBA tiene el mejor torneo amateur del mundo, y cuenta con mas jugadores, divisiones y tal vez clubes que Chile completo. Desde antes que surgieran Los Pumas (1965) al jugador argentino de élite se le ofrecían oportunidades de Desarrollo, creo que Uruguay comenzó con ello hace al menos 15 años, al jugador chileno se le ha comenzado a ofrecer esas posibilidades sólo en 2020. La participación en ARC no fue acompañada de un plan de desarrollo individual y grupal, en ese contexto no se puede pedir "compromiso profesional" a jugadores amateurs, lo que si podían hacer Argentina y Uruguay. Ahora que se han destinado medios importantes para el desarrollo de los jugadores y hay un plan de Largo Plazo, espero un mucho mayor compromiso de los que juegan en forma amateur.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 02:03

thatrugbyguy wrote:What lessons are being learn in Brazil from Chile and Uruguay though? There has to be people in charge looking at the gains that are being made by both of their neighbours and looking to see how it can be implemented in Brazil. The more each nations learn about each others strengths and weaknesses the better it is for the sport across the continent.


Some months ago I posted that was hard to understand why Chile was not getting benefits of having a World Rugby powerhouse just in the other side of the mountains. Every chilean city is not longer than 10 hours by bus to an argentinian city with club rugby. The chilean champion(U. Catolica) reached the final of the argentinian Nortwest tournament back in the 90s, there were some overcross tournaments evey year but the activities got reduced to preparation trips of U 20 and U 18 teams before their southamerican or JWT tournaments. Some teams have argentinian coaches, but only few go there for pre-season or post season friendy matches.
The national Sevens team kept travelling to the argentinian main VII tournament (Seven de la República), but that is a different and succesful story. This team has followed a development program for 10 years with remarkable results.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 02:08

ficcp wrote:
Hernán : no le tengo miedo a las críticas, de hecho yo he sido un crítico de como se ha manejado el Rugby en Chile, aunque reconozco que el nombramiento de Lemoine y la definición de objetivos fue un acierto (anterior administración) y sumarse al profesionalismo, proveer mas recursos para la alta competencia y diseñar planes de largo plazo ha sido un gran acierto de la actual directiva, que ha entusiasmado a los jugadores.



El acierto fue la elección de Cristián Rudloff. Con el directorio actual, si no era Lemoine sería otro headcoach obteniendo el mismo nivel de progreso, pero sin Rudloff no existe Selknam, ni el Alto Rendimiento ni nada.

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