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Small News

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Re: Small News

Postby Thomas » Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 21:03


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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 16:21

The Finland XV championship started, maybe not today but three weeks ago

https://twitter.com/SuomenRugby/status/ ... 53/photo/1

It could be the first XV national championship restarted, I don't recall any other

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Re: Small News

Postby iul » Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 06:20

victorsra wrote:
First of all, the entire Pichot family was always involved with Rugby, always. But they were never one of those who to be involved is to only play Rugby, they are not the kind that talk and fold their arms, they are involved, in their clubs, as committe members, as managers, as coaches, as referees, etc.

WR Leading schoolarships for women have also been awarded to womens from Perú, Chile, Argentina, etc ... and what does Colombia (Alejandra Betancur is Colombian right?) and Brazil have to do with this decision? So, following your assumption, except for women's rugby, should the rest of the positions in South America Rugby be filled by Argentines?


Well, but CASI, their club, still doesn't have women's rugby.... if they can't convince their own club, well, that's complicated....

I don't mind to have an Argentine in charge of womens rugby, but in a moment with more success in the leadership of Argentina's women's rugby. UAR is in a different position, because you have everything to make women's rugby to go forward. You have the coaches, the fields, the knowledge. So I honestly expect first to see results in women's rugby in Argentina before having Argentina leading South America in this subject. If Barbara Pichot is doing a great job in UAR, so UAR needs her even more now, because there is a lot to do.

About other positions, Argentina already fills almost all position inside Sudamerica Rugby with very capable people. You are the best with men's rugby, we only have to learn with you. I don't see any problems if Argentine leads the rest of Sudamerica Rugby.

I remind you that Brazil only played two XV matches (2008 & 2019).

3, 2008, 2019 and 2020. Brazil doesn't have womens 15s at club level as well, we only formed the team to not throw away the opportunity to play a RWC Qualy and create some incentive for people here to organize womens 15s.

Argentina is much bigger than Buenos Aires, a lot. And women's rugby and its growth is precisely in the rest of the country, not in Buenos Aires. As just because Argentina is not able to beat Brazil in Women Seven, should it not have female members in Sudamérica Rugby?

I remind you that Brazil only played two XV matches (2008 & 2019). Nobody denies the highest level of its players, but you also know that it is precisely a political question because Argentina doesn't present a female XV, and it has to do with the URBA, in fact, that is why the work that Bárbara Pichot has been doing is mainly in the Inner Country, where there are fewer prejudices and Rugby is less elitist, while in Buenos Aires men's rugby is mainly contested by the Upper Class, in the Interior the female players come from a Middle and Low Class background... for this reason URBA is opposed. Share the money? If they can't bankroll his "hobbie", then don't do it ... that's the argument of UAR/URBA, yes, they see them as doing a hobby and not as athletes.


I see the strategy, but any URBA club is basicaly bigger than whole Brazilian states. The whole city of SP, with 30+ clubs, have only 3 rugby fields, 1 severely damaged due to overuse, almost without grass. Honestly, any URBA club could have a womens sevens team at least. Any. And even in Interior, well, few of the big Cordoba, Rosario, Mendoza, Tucuman clubs have womens rugby as well. It is a huge potencial not used basicaly due to sexism/elitism. And even small interior clubs in Argentina are bigger than most top Brazilian clubs anyway. I realy struggle to see how Argentina isn't able to beat us.

There is our merit, of couse, but clubs in Brazil don't have even proper fields to train or play... it is an abyss. And that's why I believe this is not the time to see Argentina leading women's rugby in the continent. Even with only small interior clubs, you should be able to beat us or to at least form a national team to play the RWC 15s qualy. I think Barbara has a lot to do improving the way UAR promotes womens rugby before going to Sudamerica Rugby.

Idealy, UAR should impose the need of women's rugby in big clubs, but this isn't realistic as it would be a too big political onus for UAR - unless WR were pressing Argentina more (like risking to cut one Council vote, for exemple).

You do know I love and respect a lot Argentina's rugby, but it is shameful how womens rugby is not included in most of Argentina's clubs. People say "oh it is cultural". Well, sexism is cultural... anyway, please, take this criticism well, because I realy admire Argentina's rugby.

Anyway, it's a lousy choice. They should have put in some good brazilian female rugby leader, I didn't know any, but surely Victor can help us with that.

I know names here, indeed, we have people that could do many good things and just can't do more here because our club rugby is too poor.

Something that interests me, why many hate Pichot? The Anti-Pichot's in Argentina proclaim that he wants to destroy amateur rugby and also oppose his constant preaching that the game must stop being elitist. But, taking away the WR election, what are the motives here to be Anti-Pichot? Is a sincerely cuestion.


I don't hate him, I think he did a great thing running against Beaumont. Argentina always did a crucial role helping other South American countries and it is together with France the only T1s that have a lot to say about improving T2 nations (althot Australia with GRR/NRC and Italy with Continental Shields stepped up as well). But there are aspects to criticise as well - like this one. I just try to see big pictures instead of cheering for or against someone.

Why would it be shamfeul for ckubs to not have women's rugby? Why can't a bunch of men organize some sport for themselves? Why can't some women organize sport for themselves if they want to play it?

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Re: Small News

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 24 Aug 2020, 15:09

iul wrote:Why would it be shamfeul for ckubs to not have women's rugby? Why can't a bunch of men organize some sport for themselves? Why can't some women organize sport for themselves if they want to play it?


Thing is, that Argentinian clubs are multi-sport and they DO organize women's sport. But mostly hockey, if I am right. If those family oriented clubs are not having women's rugby that's a big hinderance in the growth of the sport.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Mon, 24 Aug 2020, 23:18

iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:
First of all, the entire Pichot family was always involved with Rugby, always. But they were never one of those who to be involved is to only play Rugby, they are not the kind that talk and fold their arms, they are involved, in their clubs, as committe members, as managers, as coaches, as referees, etc.

WR Leading schoolarships for women have also been awarded to womens from Perú, Chile, Argentina, etc ... and what does Colombia (Alejandra Betancur is Colombian right?) and Brazil have to do with this decision? So, following your assumption, except for women's rugby, should the rest of the positions in South America Rugby be filled by Argentines?


Well, but CASI, their club, still doesn't have women's rugby.... if they can't convince their own club, well, that's complicated....

I don't mind to have an Argentine in charge of womens rugby, but in a moment with more success in the leadership of Argentina's women's rugby. UAR is in a different position, because you have everything to make women's rugby to go forward. You have the coaches, the fields, the knowledge. So I honestly expect first to see results in women's rugby in Argentina before having Argentina leading South America in this subject. If Barbara Pichot is doing a great job in UAR, so UAR needs her even more now, because there is a lot to do.

About other positions, Argentina already fills almost all position inside Sudamerica Rugby with very capable people. You are the best with men's rugby, we only have to learn with you. I don't see any problems if Argentine leads the rest of Sudamerica Rugby.

I remind you that Brazil only played two XV matches (2008 & 2019).

3, 2008, 2019 and 2020. Brazil doesn't have womens 15s at club level as well, we only formed the team to not throw away the opportunity to play a RWC Qualy and create some incentive for people here to organize womens 15s.

Argentina is much bigger than Buenos Aires, a lot. And women's rugby and its growth is precisely in the rest of the country, not in Buenos Aires. As just because Argentina is not able to beat Brazil in Women Seven, should it not have female members in Sudamérica Rugby?

I remind you that Brazil only played two XV matches (2008 & 2019). Nobody denies the highest level of its players, but you also know that it is precisely a political question because Argentina doesn't present a female XV, and it has to do with the URBA, in fact, that is why the work that Bárbara Pichot has been doing is mainly in the Inner Country, where there are fewer prejudices and Rugby is less elitist, while in Buenos Aires men's rugby is mainly contested by the Upper Class, in the Interior the female players come from a Middle and Low Class background... for this reason URBA is opposed. Share the money? If they can't bankroll his "hobbie", then don't do it ... that's the argument of UAR/URBA, yes, they see them as doing a hobby and not as athletes.


I see the strategy, but any URBA club is basicaly bigger than whole Brazilian states. The whole city of SP, with 30+ clubs, have only 3 rugby fields, 1 severely damaged due to overuse, almost without grass. Honestly, any URBA club could have a womens sevens team at least. Any. And even in Interior, well, few of the big Cordoba, Rosario, Mendoza, Tucuman clubs have womens rugby as well. It is a huge potencial not used basicaly due to sexism/elitism. And even small interior clubs in Argentina are bigger than most top Brazilian clubs anyway. I realy struggle to see how Argentina isn't able to beat us.

There is our merit, of couse, but clubs in Brazil don't have even proper fields to train or play... it is an abyss. And that's why I believe this is not the time to see Argentina leading women's rugby in the continent. Even with only small interior clubs, you should be able to beat us or to at least form a national team to play the RWC 15s qualy. I think Barbara has a lot to do improving the way UAR promotes womens rugby before going to Sudamerica Rugby.

Idealy, UAR should impose the need of women's rugby in big clubs, but this isn't realistic as it would be a too big political onus for UAR - unless WR were pressing Argentina more (like risking to cut one Council vote, for exemple).

You do know I love and respect a lot Argentina's rugby, but it is shameful how womens rugby is not included in most of Argentina's clubs. People say "oh it is cultural". Well, sexism is cultural... anyway, please, take this criticism well, because I realy admire Argentina's rugby.

Anyway, it's a lousy choice. They should have put in some good brazilian female rugby leader, I didn't know any, but surely Victor can help us with that.

I know names here, indeed, we have people that could do many good things and just can't do more here because our club rugby is too poor.

Something that interests me, why many hate Pichot? The Anti-Pichot's in Argentina proclaim that he wants to destroy amateur rugby and also oppose his constant preaching that the game must stop being elitist. But, taking away the WR election, what are the motives here to be Anti-Pichot? Is a sincerely cuestion.


I don't hate him, I think he did a great thing running against Beaumont. Argentina always did a crucial role helping other South American countries and it is together with France the only T1s that have a lot to say about improving T2 nations (althot Australia with GRR/NRC and Italy with Continental Shields stepped up as well). But there are aspects to criticise as well - like this one. I just try to see big pictures instead of cheering for or against someone.

Why would it be shamfeul for ckubs to not have women's rugby? Why can't a bunch of men organize some sport for themselves? Why can't some women organize sport for themselves if they want to play it?

Shameful because these are multisports clubs with many sports for both genders. Basicaly only rugby sections don't have womens teams, even having dozens of fields and hundreds of women as members. Rugby is played in multisports clubs there, as the structure is already in place, mainteined by the members (many women included). Women can and do found new clubs in many country, but obviously from zero. It is ludicrous to defen they should build clubs from zero, as they were for many decades FORBIDDEN to play rugby (therefore, to create clubs), as WR itself didn't accepted womens rugby until 1995. In Brazil there was a law forbidden many sports for women, including rugby, until 1985 (a dictatorship law). I believe Argentina had the same.

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Re: Small News

Postby iul » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 07:50

It's not forbidden for women now to play rugby, so why don't they organize themselves and play? Why fo men have to organize it for them?

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 18:50

It was forbidden for a long time in many (most) countries, by law (either country's law or the local rugby union rules). If you knew anything about history you would know the history of women's sports are one of men's laws/rules/regulation forbidden or discouraging them from schools to senior clubs.

Men never organized rugby for them, this is stupid argument, specialy because only ONE federation can receive official recognition for each sport, which means women can't go on and found new unions with government/Olympics recognition. In fact, they DID until 1995, but couldn't receive recognition, as sports federation can't allow a sport split in two federations. They were doing it out of alternatives. It is called a legal monopoly over a sport, that can't be based on sex - even more when they receive public money.

When we are talking about multisports clubs, they can't forbid or discourage their members to organize activities based on what you were born. You can't ban blacks and jews, for exemple (although we all know you like apartheid and nazism, don't pretend you don't). The same way they can't do it with women. You can't forbid the use of a field, even when private, based on sex, for exemple, specialy if youi already have women member paying their fees! It is basicaly anti-constitutional in any democracy.

And that's the point, it is ludicrous that big Argentine multisports clubs with thousand of members, that have other women sports and women members, simply don't have womens rugby, while other small clubs have. It is basicaly statistical that there is something wrong going on. I'm not stupid to accuse Argentine clubs of anything that I don't know, but it is basicaly statiscaly bizarre what is going on there. It is impossible huge clubs like Belgrano, SIC, CASI, etc, not having women members interested in rugby, while other tiny clubs have. It is definitly not a matter of "nobody tried to create a womens team". That's a lie, for sure, they don't open space for that. Doesn't need "men's money" for that, just a "permision", that shouldn't be asked for in the first place. We are not talking about a rugby-only pseudo-club that is just a bunch of guys playing in a random location.

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Re: Small News

Postby iul » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 21:53

Again, you're talking about stuff from the past. Today women are allowed to play rugby. Why do they need men to organize their playing activities?

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Aug 2020, 22:15

Have you read what I wrote? The answer is there. There is not a single man paying for anything. Women are already members of those clubs and they pay their fees (or are part of families that are members, doesn't matter). They have hundreds of women there playing hockey, tennis, whatever. And new women can pay for memberships, just like men, obviously. It is amateur rugby where players (memberships) basicaly sustain clubs. It is a matter of open space for them to use the clubs for rugby, just like they already use for other sports. Those are clubs with many fields, plenty space available. They will pay for it, with their memberships. It would work just like men's rugby. Argentina's club rugby is ideologicaly amateur, if you don't know. Those aren't "men's clubs" for a long time.

You must live in a silly fantasy to believe men are paying for women to play amateur rugby. That doesn't happen anywhere in the world. Everywhere women pay memberships to play amateur rugby, just like men.

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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Wed, 26 Aug 2020, 15:14

About Argentina, this magazine seems exemplar about the scarce consideration they still have about women's rugby: maybe it's just a case but there's not even one image of a woman playing, the only woman player is an hockey's one

https://issuu.com/ingoalrevista/docs/ingoal_6_2020_web

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Re: Small News

Postby Thomas » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 11:53

Canalina wrote:About Argentina, this magazine seems exemplar about the scarce consideration they still have about women's rugby: maybe it's just a case but there's not even one image of a woman playing, the only woman player is an hockey's one

https://issuu.com/ingoalrevista/docs/ingoal_6_2020_web


I have read that one before and is same tedious rubbish, just read it and only 3 partial mentions of women's rugby for Bolivia, Spain and a sports studies that incorporates women's rugby./

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Thu, 27 Aug 2020, 20:35

Well well well, in the end Sudamerica Rugby will have a Brazilian woman in the WR Council (in one of Sudamerica Rugby's seats), according to Piñeyrua, recognising Brazil's leadership in womens rugby. That's an important move, let's see how Barbara Pichot and this still unknown Brazilian (although I have 2 possible names in mind) will work together.

(around minute 30)

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Re: Small News

Postby Thomas » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 09:05

watch this space, very interesting. Who is Eduardo? seems very knowledgeable. I have listened to him before.

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Fri, 28 Aug 2020, 15:31

Chairman of the Brazilian Rugby Union, influencial entrepreneur. But he is leaving, there will be elections in October.

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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 14:04

In Chile there's a XV competition that in the second edition will involve six teams, even if some of them are a mix of different clubs.
I think there could be room for a national team, when the epidemic will permit it. I don't think that when Italy debuted, almost forty years ago, there were more then six clubs in the country

https://www.rugbychile.cl/2020/08/31/6- ... llar-2021/

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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 08:01

It's a bit disappointing that...

- there's not a website dedicated to the Elite1, the french main championship, despite that tournament is currently perhaps the most important/interesting women club competition in Europe (there are more stranger players there than in the Premiership, as far as I know) and maybe in the whole world

- the website of the World Cup 2017 (and those of the previous men's and women's World Cups) is not anymore available.
The official World Cup website includes just the editions 2019, 2021, 2023
https://www.rugbyworldcup.com

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Re: Small News

Postby Thomas » Tue, 22 Sep 2020, 20:26

Looking forward to watching some of the matches. this will be interesting

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1098636/rugby-seven-stars-switch-to-nrlw#.X2mj3nyL6Gs.twitter

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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 16:17

"The School from the Close 1852" George Barnard - Rugby School Museum
Nice painting, purposed by the "usual" Rugby Pioneers page. It's important also to understand the shape of the game in those decades. There are two particularly interesting things, maybe
a) the oaks (are they oaks?) around the field; could it be possible that some of them were already present in 1823 and are still alive today, being so a sort of mute testifies of the famous and contested episode of the W.Webb Ellis run?
b) the girl on the yellow circle seems aiming to join the match, held back and scolded by her mom (or her nanny). Somehow she is the first girl wanting to be a rugby player!

Image

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Re: Small News

Postby Canalina » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 16:56

Observing it better, the girl is just leaning toward the match, she is not really trying to join it; and the "nanny" is not scolding her but she is trying to attract the attention of the girl's little brother, who at the opposite of the sister seems not interested in rugby.
I was too enthusiast to have discovered the first wanna-be girl player and I misinterpreted the scene...

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Re: Small News

Postby victorsra » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 18:29

The Sudamerica Rugby women representative in the WR Council is now a Brazilian, Marjorie Enya, https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/re ... -3?nid=501

Enya is the first Brazilian ever in the Council. She was manager of the Brazilian womens team and one of the people in charge of the Rio 2016 sevens tournament, among other things https://www.sudamerica.rugby/espanol/re ... -3?nid=501

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Re: Small News

Postby Thomas » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 19:38

Colombia Represented by Catalina Palacio on Board of Directors of South America Rugby

and Virginia Carolina Varela (Venezuela),

http://colombia.rugby/2020/09/26/colombia-representada-por-catalina-palacio-en-consejo-directivo-de-sudamerica-rugby/

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