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Rugby Championship

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 18:30

France did :shock: ?

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 21:31

vino_93 wrote:
victorsra wrote:BTW, fun fact: Argentina and France are the only countries that have defeated Brazil in soccer, USA in basketball and NZ in rugby. Cool.

But Argentina never defeat Canada in ice hockey 8-)


But France never defeat Netherlands in Field hockey 8-)

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby vino_93 » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 23:31

victorsra wrote:France did :shock: ?

Yes, last time in 2014 :D


Hernan : who cares about amateur sport ? :D
Édit : I can't a site which would have archives results to check. But last time France lost against Netherlands there was no mention of such story of always losing... So there might a win one day ?

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Hernan14 » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 01:04

vino_93 wrote:
victorsra wrote:France did :shock: ?

Yes, last time in 2014 :D


Hernan : who cares about amateur sport ? :D
Édit : I can't a site which would have archives results to check. But last time France lost against Netherlands there was no mention of such story of always losing... So there might a win one day ?


Ohh my mistake, I don't know why I thought that the players who went to play abroad going to play professionally :D

I don't think there is a site with all the results of Field Hockey, but I can assure you that France never beat the Netherlands, in World or European level, perhaps if implement the Italian tactic, at least in the female category, of using third/four Argentine level players, at least perhaps can managed to get into the world top 20 and some day...who knows? We need to do the same with french players in Ice Hockey...but by our idiocransy, is hard to happen...Anyway, we are the current World Champions in Softball :D

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 06:04

Not only did they miss zero tackles, they made one handling error for the entire 80 mins. :shock: They more or less played as perfect a game as you can imagine. Incredible stuff. One thing has become certain with the All Blacks the last couple of years, once their attacking weapons are neutralised they don’t have a Plan B. For years it looked like the only weakness they had was themselves playing a bad game. Now they’ve been exposed. Once their attacking line is contained they have few options left. For as long as they had teams on the back foot defensively they would always dominated. As soon as teams figured out that a quick defence off the line is the key the All Blacks game plan was crippled. England did it last year, Australia did it last week, Argentina did it yesterday. It’s a high risk strategy because it means having to expend a lot of energy. Argentina’s win was even more impressive because none of them had played a test in over a year, and had as bad a preparation to a rugby tournament as you could imagine. It’s been a long time coming, and they’ve come so close on several occasions getting over the line, but it was well worth the wait. They need to build on from this though. Hopefully it makes an impact not just in Argentina but all of South American rugby.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 08:29

Most of the Pumas are showing as being Jaguares players still on Wikipedia. Yesterday's victory is the cumulation of years of development. It is very important what they do next.
Option 1: split between Ceibos, Olympia and a new BA team to play in SLAR and a new Super Rugby tournament.
Option 2: move to Europe to play professionally in the 3 big leagues there.
Option 3: move to Australia to strengthen their Super Rugby teams, especially Western Force.
Option 4: play in MLR
Option 5: Italy leaves Pro 14, Top 10 becomes professional, and the Argentina players sign with those clubs.
Or a combination of some of these, but that would result in the players being scattered around the world.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby ficcp » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 12:33

Congratulations to the Pumas!! A great performance, 80 minutes of intensity and a well executed strategy. The first missed tackle in minute 75 or so says it all.... If the AB had a "plan B" nobody noticed it, Matera & Co. did not let it happen.

I hope the good results in RCH will continue and so on the world ranking position.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 13:56

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Most of the Pumas are showing as being Jaguares players still on Wikipedia. Yesterday's victory is the cumulation of years of development. It is very important what they do next.
Option 1: split between Ceibos, Olympia and a new BA team to play in SLAR and a new Super Rugby tournament.
Option 2: move to Europe to play professionally in the 3 big leagues there.
Option 3: move to Australia to strengthen their Super Rugby teams, especially Western Force.
Option 4: play in MLR
Option 5: Italy leaves Pro 14, Top 10 becomes professional, and the Argentina players sign with those clubs.
Or a combination of some of these, but that would result in the players being scattered around the world.


Only Option 1 seems an option now.

Anyway, they can have more players abroad without damage, provided WR is able to secure a global calendar.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby ficcp » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 03:26

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Most of the Pumas are showing as being Jaguares players still on Wikipedia. Yesterday's victory is the cumulation of years of development. It is very important what they do next.
Option 1: split between Ceibos, Olympia and a new BA team to play in SLAR and a new Super Rugby tournament.
Option 2: move to Europe to play professionally in the 3 big leagues there.
Option 3: move to Australia to strengthen their Super Rugby teams, especially Western Force.
Option 4: play in MLR
Option 5: Italy leaves Pro 14, Top 10 becomes professional, and the Argentina players sign with those clubs.
Or a combination of some of these, but that would result in the players being scattered around the world.


Option 1 : Which new Superugby tournament? Jaguares were invited to a local tournament in SAF but they declined. No way they participate in the TransTasman Superugby either. This option is restricted to SLAR only.

Several argentinian players will move to Europe and Australia , maybe to USA (out of the 13 current Pumas already established in Europe) but on individual basis. I agree with victor that the other 4 options are not realistic at all.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Raven » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 11:04

This may not be the thread to discuss all this as we have a SLAR one and a South American Rugby one for it, but since all this came up here I´ll reply here too.

Jaguares as we know them will enter a hiatus until a proper solution is found for them. I very much doubt that they become the new franchise in SLAR, in spite of still having some activity in their social media, an established brand that could potentially just continue just shifting tournament, etc.

A big chunk of players will look to stay in the Southern Hemisphere, the North is pretty much bulked right now and most squads have already been built for the up & running season, whereas the TransTasman are still in the building process. Pro14 or 16 isn't a real option for a massive group of players as those teams are run by the unions, most of the players brought are "project" ones who in a number of years can qualify to play for a national team (there's the odd exception, but there cannot think of a big number of them)

I don't see a i.e, Rodrigo Bruni or Bautista Delguy moving to Asunción or Medellin to play for a SLAR team "to elevate the level of the league", SAR is in its infancy when it comes to professionalism, those players will probably turn to Japan or a PROD2 before staying.

We can speculate with a 1000 options and we may hit the spot with 1 by coincidence, but in this everchanging situation we have right now it's difficult to predict anything with certainty. Even players returning to their local clubs is an option, URBA president has come out and said they 'may' have to review their policies given the current circumstances, as we know the union doesn't allow professional players to play in their tournament.

Once the Rugby Championship is over and we see how many of the players have decided their future we'll be able to have a clearer picture...

But coming back to this thread, I'm looking forward to see what happens next Saturday when the Pumas play the Wallabies. With the surprise factor now gone, both Argentinians and Australians will bring their A game to build upon their All Black win. Will Argentina change some names in their 23? Boffelli and Isa are set to return, would love to see some more of Cordero too, Chocobares was outstanding, but Mallia is also quite an interesting uprising player...

Apparently the Pumas Staff are trying to get a mid-week friendly for this or next week, given the size of the squad and the effort they have all done (leaving everything behind for the last 2-3 months) A great idea, so that everybody gets game time, hope they manage to come up with something.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 13:48

ficcp wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Most of the Pumas are showing as being Jaguares players still on Wikipedia. Yesterday's victory is the cumulation of years of development. It is very important what they do next.
Option 1: split between Ceibos, Olympia and a new BA team to play in SLAR and a new Super Rugby tournament.
Option 2: move to Europe to play professionally in the 3 big leagues there.
Option 3: move to Australia to strengthen their Super Rugby teams, especially Western Force.
Option 4: play in MLR
Option 5: Italy leaves Pro 14, Top 10 becomes professional, and the Argentina players sign with those clubs.
Or a combination of some of these, but that would result in the players being scattered around the world.


Option 1 : Which new Superugby tournament? Jaguares were invited to a local tournament in SAF but they declined. No way they participate in the TransTasman Superugby either. This option is restricted to SLAR only.

Several argentinian players will move to Europe and Australia , maybe to USA (out of the 13 current Pumas already established in Europe) but on individual basis. I agree with victor that the other 4 options are not realistic at all.


Which Super Rugby tournament? There has been speculation that there could be a Super Rugby tournament, played in one location, with teams from New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Argentina and Japan. No details, just speculation. If it happens, Cheetahs might go. I don't think it will happen.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 14:01

Super Rugby Trans Tasman was announced last week. It is Australians + NZs.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 14:08

victorsra wrote:Super Rugby Trans Tasman was announced last week. It is Australians + NZs.


Yes I know. But wasn't there another Super Rugby tournament proposed in addition to any Trans Tasman league? Or has that idea been officially poopooed?

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 16:47

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Super Rugby Trans Tasman was announced last week. It is Australians + NZs.


Yes I know. But wasn't there another Super Rugby tournament proposed in addition to any Trans Tasman league? Or has that idea been officially poopooed?


We don't exactly know the format for 2022 but what we do know is that they want to to go to a 12 team system.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 17:21

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Super Rugby Trans Tasman was announced last week. It is Australians + NZs.


Yes I know. But wasn't there another Super Rugby tournament proposed in addition to any Trans Tasman league? Or has that idea been officially poopooed?


That's the so called Super 8. When Rugby Australia proposed it the idea was to have a calendar with Super Rugby Trans Tasman + Super 8. As TRG said, still TBD.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 17:38

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Super Rugby Trans Tasman was announced last week. It is Australians + NZs.


Yes I know. But wasn't there another Super Rugby tournament proposed in addition to any Trans Tasman league? Or has that idea been officially poopooed?


That's the so called Super 8. When Rugby Australia proposed it the idea was to have a calendar with Super Rugby Trans Tasman + Super 8. As TRG said, still TBD.


Thanks Victor. I was beginning to doubt my own mind. I don't see anything written about the Super 8 since early August so I don't think that is looking very likely at the moment.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 17:42

Here: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/08/1 ... 021-update

I'm starting to doubt about it as well because with South Africans going to PRO14 there will be little space in the calendar for that. Not impossible to arrange if EPCR keeps the South Africans out of its competitions, but not simple.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 17:53

victorsra wrote:Here: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/08/1 ... 021-update

I'm starting to doubt about it as well because with South Africans going to PRO14 there will be little space in the calendar for that. Not impossible to arrange if EPCR keeps the South Africans out of its competitions, but not simple.


I hate to say it, but even STMKY's Eurasian-African tournament is looking more likely than the Super 8 at the moment.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 18:07

So let's see, what are the professional rugby teams without a competition or in need of another competition?
Cheetahs
Jaguares
South China Tigers
Georgia franchise

You can't make a tournament with those 4 teams. They are all very different standards in four different corners of the earth.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 22:13

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Here: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/08/1 ... 021-update

I'm starting to doubt about it as well because with South Africans going to PRO14 there will be little space in the calendar for that. Not impossible to arrange if EPCR keeps the South Africans out of its competitions, but not simple.


I hate to say it, but even STMKY's Eurasian-African tournament is looking more likely than the Super 8 at the moment.


South Africans in PRO14 will mean many problems to be fixed. Lets' see:

- If TRC is kept in August/September (because Aussies and Kiwis want that), when will South African players rest? Opinion: during Six Nations (provided PRO14 doesn't have matches in that period);

- Will World Rugby move July tests to October?

- Will South Africans play EPCR competition? If they don't, there will be 9 dates available. Super 8? Currie Cup? Both?

IMO, if WR moves July tests to October, it makes possible to have a short Super 8 during July in a pre-determined venue with, let's say, 2 Japanese, 3 Super Rugby Trans-Tasman, 2 South Africa PRO16 and 1 MLR/SLAR teams (making it interesting for the Cheetahs to be in SLAR or MLR).

Or maybe Super 12 (4 groups of 3, 4 matches each team), with 2 Japanese, 6 Super Rugby Trans Tasman, 2 South Africa PRO16, 2 SLAR (with Cheetahs)? Something like this.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby ficcp » Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 22:33

Back to RCH.

I do not think Agentina will use the same strategy of soffocating defence against Australia because they play different to the AB. OZ backs can be very dangerous and whoever plays as 10 will use the kick a lot to pass the Pumas wall. Cheika´s insight on Wallabies is an important element in the way Ledesma approaches the match, perhaps he will deliver another surprising scheme.
I imagine more use of the "pick and go" by the Pumas forwards and also more participations of the back 3 in attack. The team which combines better the breakdown battle and the attack ability of the backs will end up smiling.

The odds are against Argentina, but this is 2020...

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 23:16

The odds aren’t against them at all. One good match against the All Blacks doesn’t fix the underlying problems within Australian rugby. We are an average team at present and are ripe for the taking. Pumas could win by 20 points next weekend if they play as good against us as they did the All Blacks.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby ficcp » Wed, 18 Nov 2020, 20:45

Americas Rugby News published "Argentina´s 10 greatests wins" . I recommend to have a look at it.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby ficcp » Sat, 21 Nov 2020, 12:36

Australia had the formula to defeat Los Pumas but they need to train more their accuracy in order to execute it successfully. They played better and they should have won.

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Re: Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 21 Nov 2020, 22:12

Pumas could have easily won at the end if that kick-chase worked in their favour. Wallabies were about as arrogant as I’ve ever seen. I counted at least 4 kickable penalties they turned down for the lineout. Argentina would be far happier with that result than Australia would be, Pumas only had 37% possession the whole game.

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