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Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 21 Feb 2021, 22:03

People are not questioning the most obvious: who pays? And does it worth?

And the obvious answer is no to both.

Argentina will have to pay a whole project away from home in EUROS. Think about this. It is very naive to believe it will be a success among Bilbao people. Why would it? An Argentine team of a sport that is not even important in the city, and where those that like rugby are already well served by Bayonne/Biarritz nearby. Bilbao has soccer, basketball, who will care about Jaguares? Bilbao is not a city that needs a team.

It is incredible how people believe in teams-in-exile. No sport operates with a team playing all matches away from home. This fictional teams mania in rugby is bizarre. The South Africans, in the other hand, are doing the right thing, joining a league to play at home.

And what UAR gains with it? They already have their players in Europe. Waste of resources.

And what Wales, Scotland or Italy win from it? Nothing, they have only things to lose. Argentina won't bring a big load of extra money to the league, but will be competitive enough to make Welsh, Scottish and Italian teams to have hard times. They are already risking their chances of being champions ever again with the Saffas.

The fact is: the article is cleraly click bait, because they showed no sources.
Maybe it is true UAR is studying the viability, but it is clearly not solid news.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Rebus » Sun, 21 Feb 2021, 22:32

Its obviously been proposed before by UAR to play in Europe , so this isnt a surprise . It benefits the Argentinians to keep playing in a top level competition in the absence of Super Rugby. The competition in SLAR isnt high enough to keep the Argentinians competitive and having their top players playing in clubs outwith their control will not assist the national team preparations. TV and corporate money will finance most of the overheads , it would cost more in their standing in the world game in the long run to stay out of competitons like this.

They can continue to support the SLAR by using it as a development league , just in the same way they used the Currie Cup and the ARC with a development national 15 , neither of which raised any compaints.

In terms of playing in Spain , why not ? Its a country where the game is on the increase and gives a platform for local players to move to other than the lower French leagues. Also , it provides a proof of concept at someone elses expense to see if the professional game will take of in Spain. If it works for the Argentinians , then you may see a Spanish professional team or teams join the Pro league.

Going out on a limb , if this does take of , expect SA and Argentina to join the 6 Nations and then Spain , Russia , Georgia may find a route into an expanded 6 as a sweetener.

Those who say Scotland would be against it arent reckoning on their despertion for money. Imagine an annual competition with the current 6 nations , SA and Argentina playing in it without fear of relegation ?? Scotland would love to have that as would the Italians , more money , throw in the sweetener of the Spanish and one other country , after all Madrid is preferable to the Scottish committee blazers and their wives for a weekend away with one extra of either the Georgians , Romanians and Russians and suddenly you have the expanded competiton and more games with the T2 teams. Argentina gets a top level competiton for club and country , SA gets another partner to push for entry into the 6 Nations , the 6 Nations gets to expand and seen as giving opportunity to 2 T2 NAtions , CVC get exposure into 4 new markets , everyone is a winner.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 21 Feb 2021, 22:41

How it benefits Argentina? All Pumas players are playing in Top 14, Premiership and Super Rugby AU. They are not lacking anything. It will only cost them money. UAR will have to pay in Euros the project. It is T1s ignorance to believe Argentina needs T1 rugby to produce players. They don't. Argentina has a pretty strong domestic rugby. They only need a professional platform. That they already have with best players in Europe and new talent in SLAR.

Spain doesn't win anything, nobody doubts they have public at the point EPCR itself organized a Champions Cup final there. The Jaguares is not any experiment for Spain. The on-field results can't be compared, because Jaguares would be the Pumas, nothing that Spain would be able to replicate. And off the field, again, it means nothing for Spain if the team is being payed with UAR's money. To know if Spain can pay for it, they don't need Argentina's experiment. It is only a matter of someone in Spanish rugby wanting to pay.

So, again, it is nonsense for all sides. Just like the bizarre Cheetahs talk.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Figaro » Mon, 22 Feb 2021, 12:53

I'm not sure the team would be that competitive actually, at least initially. Three quarters of the former Jaguares players have signed contracts overseas, and it would take a few years for all of those to expire and for them to be "repatriated" (...to Spain?) to the "domestic" side. The team would probably be able to attract better players than an Argentine SLAR franchise would, but initially at least would probably be made up of younger players and nothing like the 2019 Jaguares that made the Super Rugby final.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 22 Feb 2021, 13:04

I've said before if the expansion was to a PRO18 in 2021, instead of PRO16, with Jaguares (based in Buenos Aires) joining together with Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers, and with the Cheetahs remaining, it could be good, because 3 groups of 6 would even reduce travelling (because there would be 10 matches inside the conference).

The question about why the Welsh and Scottish would accept it would remain, indeed, but if it is a "package", all 6 or nothing, it could have been the best bet. But now Jaguares and Cheetahs are again doing a step back and once the PRO16 is operating another expansion would be very problematic, specialy needing to rebuild the Jaguares.

So, timing is a big difference. And, obviously, to play at home. It is realy curious no one questioning why Saffas would play at home and Argies wouldn't.

Another thing is that PRO16 will opt to have a single group, not conferences anymore. It looks like they want to avoid the mess Super Rugby did. So, with a round robin system, 18 teams are not much doable.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Figaro » Mon, 22 Feb 2021, 16:00

victorsra wrote:I've said before if the expansion was to a PRO18 in 2021, instead of PRO16, with Jaguares (based in Buenos Aires) joining together with Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers, and with the Cheetahs remaining, it could be good, because 3 groups of 6 would even reduce travelling (because there would be 10 matches inside the conference).

The question about why the Welsh and Scottish would accept it would remain, indeed, but if it is a "package", all 6 or nothing, it could have been the best bet. But now Jaguares and Cheetahs are again doing a step back and once the PRO16 is operating another expansion would be very problematic, specialy needing to rebuild the Jaguares.

So, timing is a big difference. And, obviously, to play at home. It is realy curious no one questioning why Saffas would play at home and Argies wouldn't.

Another thing is that PRO16 will opt to have a single group, not conferences anymore. It looks like they want to avoid the mess Super Rugby did. So, with a round robin system, 18 teams are not much doable.


It's pretty obvious why this is being suggested, because part of the rationale behind putting the South Africans in a Europe-based competition is that the timezones align, thus overcoming one of the major criticisms of Super Rugby. This issue isn't the travel, though that also cuts into your profit margins, but the TV rights - it's a much more valuable product if you don't have to broadcast half the games at stupid-o-clock-in-the-morning. Adding Argentina would be quite a bit different, even though it's just the one team. If Namibia were at the same level as Argentina and also had a homeless pro side, it would be a much easier sell to let them in at the same time as South Africa.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Salta » Mon, 22 Feb 2021, 16:41

Figaro wrote:
victorsra wrote:I've said before if the expansion was to a PRO18 in 2021, instead of PRO16, with Jaguares (based in Buenos Aires) joining together with Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers, and with the Cheetahs remaining, it could be good, because 3 groups of 6 would even reduce travelling (because there would be 10 matches inside the conference).

The question about why the Welsh and Scottish would accept it would remain, indeed, but if it is a "package", all 6 or nothing, it could have been the best bet. But now Jaguares and Cheetahs are again doing a step back and once the PRO16 is operating another expansion would be very problematic, specialy needing to rebuild the Jaguares.

So, timing is a big difference. And, obviously, to play at home. It is realy curious no one questioning why Saffas would play at home and Argies wouldn't.

Another thing is that PRO16 will opt to have a single group, not conferences anymore. It looks like they want to avoid the mess Super Rugby did. So, with a round robin system, 18 teams are not much doable.


It's pretty obvious why this is being suggested, because part of the rationale behind putting the South Africans in a Europe-based competition is that the timezones align, thus overcoming one of the major criticisms of Super Rugby. This issue isn't the travel, though that also cuts into your profit margins, but the TV rights - it's a much more valuable product if you don't have to broadcast half the games at stupid-o-clock-in-the-morning. Adding Argentina would be quite a bit different, even though it's just the one team. If Namibia were at the same level as Argentina and also had a homeless pro side, it would be a much easier sell to let them in at the same time as South Africa.


The time difference is only three hours. Between SA and UK the difference is two hours.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 22 Feb 2021, 16:51

It is definitly not the reason. Time difference between UK and Argentina varies between 3 and 4 hours (Argentina is GMT -3, UK GMT 0, SA gmt +2), depending on the month. It is not a problem. All American leagues operate in 4 time zones, for exemple. Even UEFA Champions League operates usualy between 4 and 6 time zones (depeding on Kazakhstan). Still, much less than Super Rugby used to have.

Remember, South America is much more to the East than North America. Usualy people believe North and South America are in the same time zones, hence the confusion. Even Chile is more to the East than NY.

(don't ask me why Argentina opted for GMT -3 and not GMT -4 :lol: it is weird.... maybe it is a Spanish thing :P )

Image

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Figaro » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 11:01

victorsra wrote:It is definitly not the reason. Time difference between UK and Argentina varies between 3 and 4 hours (Argentina is GMT -3, UK GMT 0, SA gmt +2), depending on the month. It is not a problem. All American leagues operate in 4 time zones, for exemple. Even UEFA Champions League operates usualy between 4 and 6 time zones (depeding on Kazakhstan). Still, much less than Super Rugby used to have.

Remember, South America is much more to the East than North America. Usualy people believe North and South America are in the same time zones, hence the confusion. Even Chile is more to the East than NY.

(don't ask me why Argentina opted for GMT -3 and not GMT -4 :lol: it is weird.... maybe it is a Spanish thing :P )

Image


Fair enough, yes I see your point.

Presumably Argentina went for -3 so that they'd be in the same timezone as the rest of the southern cone? Same reason France and Spain are +1 to be the same as central Europe, with even though they should realy be 0.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 13:53

Good question. Maybe they simply made the whole country adapt to Bueno Aires time, making it more alligned to Brazil and Uruguay (Mercosur reasons?). Doesn't seem a pretty strong reason though. Maybe it is another thing.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Raven » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 15:50

I agree with @victorsa, I think this Irish article just picked up a rumour, or heard about an Argentine inquiry / intention and filled it up with a load of made up ideas.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby geuvanio22 » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 19:25

So assuming that a) the PRO16 idea for the Jaguares is a hoax/not viable, b) the UAR really wants to keep a Jaguares squad playing at a similar level to what was being played at Super Rugby (even if there are no extra gains in the Pumas performance since their top players are still playing in good leagues, as some members have pointed out) and c) SLAR is seen as a development league for future talent, not as a competitive-must-have-our-best-players-league (at least in the near future), what is a viable option for the Jaguares? European leagues are probably not an option, specially due to its costs, the new Super Rugby format doesn't seem to be very welcoming to a Argentine side and other pro leagues don't seem to be desirable in terms of level (MLR, for example, would be far too easy for a squad that reached Super Rugby Finals recently, not to mention it's costs).

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 19:51

I think UAR understands they were building a brand that was becoming valuable. So, they are not convinced they should have this project aborted. It was supposed to be much bigger than simply a team for Pumas players. The problem is: Super Rugby allowed the Jaguares to play in Buenos Aires, even making everybody cross literaly the whole globe for that. PRO16 was supposed to be open to them, and would have less travel issue (less time zones = less impact on players welfare + better kickoff times for broadcast). However, it looks like they don't want Jaguares to play in Buenos Aires, which means Jaguares becomes essencialy a whole different commercial project. Pichot said this in an interview, btw. Jaguares-in-exile is a very different project than Jaguares playing in Buenos Aires.

But, the source can be basicaly a click bait, so... more sources need to appear to provide a better picture of the case.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 19:54

News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby geuvanio22 » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 20:16

Armchair Fan wrote:News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.


Ok, forget the hoax part, just assume it's not viable, what would be the next option? I'm just trying to think of other ideas that could give a good sporting and financial return. Playing at home (and against competitive sides) seems like a fundamental thing to build up a strong and lasting brand, and if it's not against Super Rugby or PRO16 sides, who should the Jaguares be playing?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby andyrobnev » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 20:27

I’d like to see the Jaguares be something like a domestic representative side for the best players in Argentina (or South America), that either tour NZ/Aus or receive incoming touring teams. I’m not sure how it would work with schedules etc., but I think it would be a cool idea.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 20:44

geuvanio22 wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.


Ok, forget the hoax part, just assume it's not viable, what would be the next option? I'm just trying to think of other ideas that could give a good sporting and financial return. Playing at home (and against competitive sides) seems like a fundamental thing to build up a strong and lasting brand, and if it's not against Super Rugby or PRO16 sides, who should the Jaguares be playing?


Well, ok, there might be talks in Spain, but too many things were said in the backstages that when said were far from concrete. We know UAR already commented recently that "everything is on the table". So, it realy doesn't mean much.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Feb 2021, 20:53

andyrobnev wrote:I’d like to see the Jaguares be something like a domestic representative side for the best players in Argentina (or South America), that either tour NZ/Aus or receive incoming touring teams. I’m not sure how it would work with schedules etc., but I think it would be a cool idea.

You mean, a SLAR XV?

Sudamerica Rugby already organizes often the Sudamerica Rugby XV. The problem is simple: no one here realy cares about such team. Well, at least in Brazil, but I'd be surprised if people from other countries say they care. It has no substancial commercial value to be a touring team and would waste space in the calendar.

However, it is indeed a cool team to like host a touring T1 national team, that is already visiting South America, like in a midweek match. Let's say, a T1 visits Argentina. They would never play Chile or Brazil, so a Sudamerica Rugby XV could realy work and be interesting. That's the only scenario I see value.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 02:18

victorsra wrote:
andyrobnev wrote:I’d like to see the Jaguares be something like a domestic representative side for the best players in Argentina (or South America), that either tour NZ/Aus or receive incoming touring teams. I’m not sure how it would work with schedules etc., but I think it would be a cool idea.

You mean, a SLAR XV?

Sudamerica Rugby already organizes often the Sudamerica Rugby XV. The problem is simple: no one here realy cares about such team. Well, at least in Brazil, but I'd be surprised if people from other countries say they care. It has no substancial commercial value to be a touring team and would waste space in the calendar.

However, it is indeed a cool team to like host a touring T1 national team, that is already visiting South America, like in a midweek match. Let's say, a T1 visits Argentina. They would never play Chile or Brazil, so a Sudamerica Rugby XV could really work and be interesting. That's the only scenario I see value.


I think a SLAR XV vs a T1 opponent would be quite an interesting proposition.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 02:24

Armchair Fan wrote:News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.


While I don't dislike the idea I am not really sure what the overall benefit would be for all parties involved. I mean. From an Argentina point of view. I don't understand why the Jags just couldn't play out of BA. Yes, it's a relatively long flight at 15hrs but there's minimal time zones to cross which is the real killer when it comes to jet lag and performance. It's not much longer than the trips made to SA in the Pro 14 Plus, careful scheduling would help a lot.

From a Spanish perspective. I don't see how having a wholly foreign rostered team benefits Spanish Rugby. Will there be any involvement in HP systems? Development in terms of playing standards and participation? What is in it for the Spanish RU?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Ainsthrilln » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 07:30

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.


While I don't dislike the idea I am not really sure what the overall benefit would be for all parties involved. I mean. From an Argentina point of view. I don't understand why the Jags just couldn't play out of BA. Yes, it's a relatively long flight at 15hrs but there's minimal time zones to cross which is the real killer when it comes to jet lag and performance. It's not much longer than the trips made to SA in the Pro 14 Plus, careful scheduling would help a lot.

From a Spanish perspective. I don't see how having a wholly foreign rostered team benefits Spanish Rugby. Will there be any involvement in HP systems? Development in terms of playing standards and participation? What is in it for the Spanish RU?


Nothing.

For Argentina rugby Spain is just a cash grab, either paid conferences tour for coaches, or players without opportunities in better leagues of Europe.

There has been zero involvement in the development of Spanish rugby, not even a match with Argentina XV but in WR Nations Cup, and it wouldn't be different with this project. It would obviously field only Argentinian players, and it wouldn't produce additional exposure to rugby in Spain (as said before, the Barcelona Dracs were a team in NFL Europe, and American Football remained even more a niche sport than rugby).

If they are talking about Bilbao, either they're talking with a business promoter, or with a public administration, investing in the team (otherwise it wouldn't make sense). It wouldn't surprise me if the project depended on a grant from the Basque government.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 11:28

Whatever the solution is the Jags brand cannot be simply thrown away. Too much work went into creating an Argentinian pro-team that had commercial value in the rugby world.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby andyrobnev » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 11:42

Not an SLAR XV, because there are other nationalities in SLAR. For me the Jaguares are an Argentine team, and so they should represent Argentines.

Just a thought - but maybe they could tour the Northern Hemisphere in November (play Spain, Georgia, Pacific Islands on neutral ground, French Barbarians, England Saxons etc.) as the Jaguares are now a well known brand and Argentine rugby is known as an attractive and entertaining style.

It would be great if in future tours, T1 teams could play one midweek game vs Uruguay and one game vs Jaguares, in addition to a two test series vs Argentina. The Jaguares could also be good opposition for incoming T2 touring teams to Uruguay.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 14:43

andyrobnev wrote:I’d like to see the Jaguares be something like a domestic representative side for the best players in Argentina (or South America), that either tour NZ/Aus or receive incoming touring teams. I’m not sure how it would work with schedules etc., but I think it would be a cool idea.


That’s pretty much Argentina XV, except they don’t tour because it’s expensive and they would probably be as good as a Mitre 10 club.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Wed, 24 Feb 2021, 14:48

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:News regarding Pro 14 are not an hoax. It may not be viable in the end and it may have been leaked at an excessively early stage because other options are also on the table, but there is water in that pool. It wasn't a fantasy written by the journalist.


While I don't dislike the idea I am not really sure what the overall benefit would be for all parties involved. I mean. From an Argentina point of view. I don't understand why the Jags just couldn't play out of BA. Yes, it's a relatively long flight at 15hrs but there's minimal time zones to cross which is the real killer when it comes to jet lag and performance. It's not much longer than the trips made to SA in the Pro 14 Plus, careful scheduling would help a lot.

From a Spanish perspective. I don't see how having a wholly foreign rostered team benefits Spanish Rugby. Will there be any involvement in HP systems? Development in terms of playing standards and participation? What is in it for the Spanish RU?


It would be the same for Jaguares as Super Rugby except with fewer time zones. So for them it’s perfectly fine, if not better. But the other Pro14 clubs will not like this (except possibly South Africa for whom it won’t make much of a difference).

The only way I can see an Argentina team in Spain make any kind of sense is if it was a joint partnership with Spain and/or a private entity. The team would be the preferred choice for Argentine players and the union would have some say over player selection (as part of their agreement). Spain can use the team to develop their own players, build a local fan base and have other benefits like grassroots growth of the game (because UAR has 0 incentive to develop Spanish rugby).

This plan comes with tons of its own problems and questions that leads me to believe that it isn’t feasible either. But I think it makes more sense than the Jaguares just outright moving to Barcelona.

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