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Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Raven » Sat, 09 Jan 2021, 17:15

Nothing has been said about an official "launch" of the League, right? I'm asking cause it's pretty much out there that Ceibos is almost 100% gone and Jaguares XV will be taking their place, Corinthians is unlikely to return as the Brazilian franchise and rumors of Peñarol also being replaced with a different name have also emerged... Ironic that the 3 countries backing this project from the begining and who originally intended to field 2 teams each are now in this situation. Of course one could argue that no one could have forseen the pandemic and the setback caused by it, but it does give an impression of a fragile foundation compared to the Chilean and Paraguayan franchises, these even have some of their argentine players returning in 2021 which I think is pretty healthy. Cafeteros are yet to be seen, of course, but they seem to have played it out smartly by waiting a season and only now making their entrance.

Tobar wrote:I hope so too but I’m concerned that the backer won’t have interest in returning.


I still don't get UAR's view on this... is it cause the list of sponsors UAR/Jaguares had that needed to be showcased somewhere? Just to keep "the brand" alive? Clearly it is not the same to do so in Super Rugby as it is in the SLAR; the list of names around it, the fact that people were allowed in stadiums and it will now be played in closed venues, the difference between airing games on TV broadcasters who pay the rights compared to a free YouTube streaming... It is an entirely different product for everybody involved. Plus I'm not forgetting that Rugby has been hit hard in Argentina with "off field" events, this name change won't be spoken about in mainstream programes, but Rugby fans will be embarassed (or should be) with the way this was handled. It makes no "logical" sense, in my head - as I said above, I'm still open to read anybody's take on this as I'm probably leaving some important piece of the puzzle aside which I cannot see.

Some journalists mention Riccomi didn't actually invest the whole mill. as some report, he did pay for Tala's illummination and player contracts, plus other bits and bobs, but I would assume thats because the season had to be cancelled, and not because he was in breach of his contract.

Sorry to insist, but, if there was a year to have 2 franchises it was this one! There won't be any home / away games anyway, let the private investor take care of one squad and have Jaguares XV as an invitee for the 2021 edition until you find a solution that suits you, or let yourself be surprised if the SLAR makes ends meet for everyone. Avoid getting into a legal battle with the Ceibos owner, the frowns from eveybody who worked with the Caibos project (don't forget the franchise was based outside of Buenos Aires which was a major thing and a few provinces where after the opportunity) you broaden the pool of players with pro contracts in the region and eventually if logic prevails you have a strong(er) final. After all, the Currie Cup First Division wasn't an outstanding standard either... UAR was aiming for a Currie Cup Premier entry this year, all or nothing.

So, with no league launch, no realistic mid/long term plan for future teams (clearly even signed contracts can be torn), this season will basically consist of *mostly* newly formed teams training in each country, eventually traveling to the first bubble (where AFAIK teams will be sharing hotel?) to play a few games, hopefully with their entire complete squads and then continue to another bubble (again sharing hotels?) for the finals of a 5 team tourney. Fingers crossed we see some decent rugby.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Jan 2021, 17:25

In Brazil's case, the pandemics isn't the problem.

Corinthians was a failed project before the pandemics. The Brazilian Rugby Union made a partnership in 2019 with Corinthians that was basicaly the concession of the name. Corinthians wouldn't put any money, not even allow the rugby team to play in their second stadium (Corinthians has two stadium; the World Cup stadium and an old small stadium where their women's football team play... not even that small stadium would be available for rugby). Their intention was to use Corinthians brand's market value to sign better sponsorship contracts and etc, but the 2020 SLAR started with a total fail. AFAIK, not a single cent was brought by the Corinthians brand. And the Brazilian rugby community was basicaly deeply divided about the idea of supporting Corinthians, because it is obviously a football identity surrounded by fierce rivalries.

What changed in Brazil is that the Brazilian Rugby Union had elections and it looks like the new administration sees there is no benefit in keeping Corinthians after all criticism. Their main goal is to reunite the community. Let's see if they'll achieve that with a new brand for the SLAR team. But, honestly, SLAR isn't the priority for most people. Club rugby is in the core of our problems.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Jan 2021, 17:38

Sorry to insist, but, if there was a year to have 2 franchises it was this one! There won't be any home / away games anyway, let the private investor take care of one squad and have Jaguares XV as an invitee for the 2021 edition until you find a solution that suits you, or let yourself be surprised if the SLAR makes ends meet for everyone. Avoid getting into a legal battle with the Ceibos owner, the frowns from eveybody who worked with the Caibos project (don't forget the franchise was based outside of Buenos Aires which was a major thing and a few provinces where after the opportunity) you broaden the pool of players with pro contracts in the region and eventually if logic prevails you have a strong(er) final. After all, the Currie Cup First Division wasn't an outstanding standard either... UAR was aiming for a Currie Cup Premier entry this year, all or nothing.


If decisions were made by October, maybe Ceibos could have found a way to exist as an independent second franchise. Of course, the main question was probably who would pay their players' salaries and etc. But with more time available, maybe a solution would appear. It is obvious that 2 professional teams (if affordable) would be great for Argentina (and for the league, that would have the taste of a real league... now, with 1 team in each country, it only tastes as a "South American Championship 2.0"... or "South American Championship on Argentine Steroids :lol: ", as, with the Uruguay exception, other countries are now their national teams boosted by some Argies....).

BTW, Buenos Aires (Jaguares) vs Interior (Ceibos) could become something very cool.

Anyway, the question is: why Argentina took so long time to accept that the Jaguares wouldn't have any other alternative?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Raven » Sat, 09 Jan 2021, 19:21

Yes, exactly, I second everything you state.
The addition of argentines will surely raise the level bar, but we cannot be as naive to think it's enough to compete with the Argentine franchise, it will be as you mention a Sudamericano masked by the different names & jerseys. Don't get me wrong, even knowing all this I'll still be hooked on it! I just wish they could have taken the opportunity to make it a bit more attractive to a broader audience.

The Buenos Aires vs Interior is a "battle" I won't get into, Jaguares XV would have had players from "the Interior" and viceversa anyway, but having 2 teams would certainly make it more attractive in principle.

victorsra wrote:Anyway, the question is: why Argentina took so long time to accept that the Jaguares wouldn't have any other alternative?


I don't see it only as they should have realized that the Super Rugby model was over, or at least on hold, for 2021; but also this year Jaguares XV will play in SLAR, next year if there's a chance for an Argentine team to play elsewhere, Australia, South Africa, MLR (knowing it's almost impossible, but who knows), Europe, etc, they will leave, and then it is 100% unlikely that they can afford a franchise in a major league and another one in the SLAR. And who will back financially an Argentine franchise with this precedent?

I would even understand is someone told me, the UAR cannot afford 2 franchises with home and away game logistics, training and accommodation facilities, manpower, even the split of coaching and managerial staffs... but this doesn't apply to this particular season! they'll train for 2 months, play for 2 months, in just 2 separate venues. There's been some layoffs and Ignacio Fernandez Lobbe was at the end of his contract but you still have the Pumitas coaching team and what's left of the Jaguares Staff that won't be with the Pumas until June. The other Unions are maximizing their resourses, surely Argentina could have done the same just 1 time, 1 time for 'just' 4 months, it's not even an entire year season or a calendar year I'm talking about.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sun, 10 Jan 2021, 16:53

Selknam announce Nicolás Bruzzone as head coach

https://www.slar.rugby/selknam-informo- ... -11?nid=61

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Sun, 10 Jan 2021, 22:12

Jaguares replacing Ceibos in the SLAR makes perfect sense to me. Going with an established franchise instead of a paper corporation with an uncertain financial future having no one under contract is a no brainer. The cherry on top is the 2021 season being played inside a bubble with all the limitations a situation like this involves. Moreover the brand Jaguares is still much too strong to just allow it to completely disappear. The UAR tried every other possibility to keep it going abroad to no avail but now that they are a part of SLAR, the move gives the league immediate legitimacy in the eyes of the rugby world, and with it, money from sponsors. Lots of money!

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Sun, 10 Jan 2021, 22:20

Franco Velarde (FC Barcelona) and Ramón Ayarza (Anglet) leave Spain and France and sign with Selknam. A third chilean playing abroad in the MLR is also expected to sign in the next few days. This means that either Torrealba or Bursic will be playing in the SLAR this upcoming season.

Image

Full Article (In Spanish)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 03:24

I think you haven't understood the whole problem. Ceibos has a contract with UAR to play SLAR unti 2026. They lost a whole year because of the pandemics and now UAR only decided it very close to the start of the season, without any time for Ceibos administration to negociate their future, while they were expecting to be part of the 2021 season.

It is highly unprofessional from UAR to do so and it means any private investor that wants to put money on a SLAR team would probably think twice. How can you trust that it is safe to do business with an Union and a League that does works like this? It is basic stuff.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 15:28

So, I previously asked about how SLAR was affording air travel. So how are they affording a bubble?

Or rather is this gonna be like the Autumn Nations Cup Bubble or the NBA Bubble? Because that would go a long way to giving you the idea on costs.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby carbonero » Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 20:20

It has to be an NBA bubble. Anything else would be reckless. The previous bubbles in Montevideo were not as restrictive but the transmission of the virus was low at the time.

Hourcade said before that each franchise was operating with less than one third of 2020’s budget:

“We have worked hard to reduce costs. Each franchise pays an entry fee that includes travel, accommodation, meals, player salaries, etc. That fee is less than one third of what it took to run an average franchise last year. Sudamerica Rugby takes care of everything because it is easier to negotiate a package together”.

Some of those savings could go into the bubble. The tournament also has government support in both countries, they don’t have spend resources renting stadiums/facilities and hotel occupation is historically low so they can get a steep discount.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 21:51

Pichulonko wrote:Jaguares replacing Ceibos in the SLAR makes perfect sense to me. Going with an established franchise instead of a paper corporation with an uncertain financial future having no one under contract is a no brainer. The cherry on top is the 2021 season being played inside a bubble with all the limitations a situation like this involves. Moreover the brand Jaguares is still much too strong to just allow it to completely disappear. The UAR tried every other possibility to keep it going abroad to no avail but now that they are a part of SLAR, the move gives the league immediate legitimacy in the eyes of the rugby world, and with it, money from sponsors. Lots of money!


Really? You think this gives them lots of money from sponsors? Sponsors paid to see the best Argentine players playing against All Blacks. Now they’re playing against mostly Tier 2-3 players.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 16:07

It's a branding issue and Jaguares is a well established brand despite their roster strength.

Why do you think the UAR decided to play SLAR and not take a hiatus?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 16:12

Bernstein, Grippo, De Sanctis and Giudice confirmed in the Brazilian franchise. https://www.portaldorugby.com.br/notici ... -para-slar

It is also confirmed the team will have a new name.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 16:21

The Brazilian franchise will have an Argentine head coach: Emiliano Bergamaschi, former Bristol and Saracens prop and Pumas assistant coach in the RWC 2015. Fernando Portugal will keep as Tupis coach. https://www.portaldorugby.com.br/notici ... i-ex-pumas

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Raven » Wed, 13 Jan 2021, 11:18

victorsra wrote:The Brazilian franchise will have an Argentine head coach: Emiliano Bergamaschi, former Bristol and Saracens prop and Pumas assistant coach in the RWC 2015. Fernando Portugal will keep as Tupis coach. https://www.portaldorugby.com.br/notici ... i-ex-pumas


Making it 6 out of 6 teams for Argentine coaches in the SLAR.

Pichulonko wrote:Jaguares replacing Ceibos in the SLAR makes perfect sense to me. Going with an established franchise instead of a paper corporation with an uncertain financial future having no one under contract is a no brainer. The cherry on top is the 2021 season being played inside a bubble with all the limitations a situation like this involves. Moreover the brand Jaguares is still much too strong to just allow it to completely disappear. The UAR tried every other possibility to keep it going abroad to no avail but now that they are a part of SLAR, the move gives the league immediate legitimacy in the eyes of the rugby world, and with it, money from sponsors. Lots of money!


I think you are mixing a few things here. Jagaures (XV !!! important detail) in SLAR = GOOD; Jaguares XV replacing Ceibos = NOT SO GOOD. Most importantly, there isn't any "Lots of money!" anywhere, UAR has apparently lost various MAIN sponsors for various reasons with reports even suggesting that Nike (despite being a 'Pichot group brand' and all) may also be ready to part ways https://twitter.com/alejo21rc/status/13 ... 9861757954 as they are leaving or already left Argentina...
For what I gather, the reason UAR is overtaking a franchise in the SLAR is to try and showcase some of the remainig sponsors that will still support argentine rugby in spite of the various hits of 2020, as well as wanting full ownership of the team/franchise w/ full control over the small revenue the league MIGHT generate (should World Rugby still support the project, something that isn't clear yet) instead of a % of it. This is where, to me, it doesn't add up, Jaguares could be a part of the SLAR, without taking Ceibos' place away. UAR having 100% ownership of the former and 50% of the latter. I very much doubt that if they wanted to take a real leap of faith in the SLAR they cannot afford an investment of 1/3 of the budjet required last season to take part of the league this year, but maybe I've been very naive to think the Ceibos 'owner' had a bigger role in the franchise as what he really did, and the UAR really can't manage 2 full running franchises under their umbrella, even if we are talking of 4 or 5 months only (a very worrying issue in itself too)

Also, by playing in a bubble and most likely with no audience, question I also have is; will the pitch sponsors be the ones of the home teams or the ones that belong to the hosts? I believe part of the accommodation and logistics will be covered by the locals...

Pichulonko wrote:It's a branding issue and Jaguares is a well established brand despite their roster strength.


You want to see it as a US or European business manager, and in reality it's far from it. The "brand" Jaguares has only 5 years of existence (and Jaguares XV, just a few months!), lets no add a mythical legacy around it. Pampas XV had also a name and more modern history behind them, they could have revamped them and that "brand" wasn't in the cards when the Argentine Super Rugby franchise was announced back in 2016. The South American Jaguars of the 80s or Argentina Jaguars (Arg "A") had a completely different flair.
You take lightly the roster strength, the opposition, the league they play in and it has to mean something. Have you ever been to a Jaguares Home game -or a Super Rugby one for that matter- or seen any footage of the pre and post game atmosphere? the sponsors terrace, the whole presence & look and feel is different. Sponsors are behind a full product, the product Jaguares was a part of has changed dramatically now, it's not just a banner or a patch in the jersey.

Pichulonko wrote:Why do you think the UAR decided to play SLAR and not take a hiatus?


Because of what I mentioned above, the only thing they could still offer to the sponsors was that in some form a "Jaguares" scrap side is still alive, therefore they have to remain in some form. However, sponsors aren't stupid and surely they wanted their business behind a different product altogether, some left and some renegotiated their contracts. Will games be shown on ESPN? or ESPN 3 or ESPN Play? or via a free Youtube link / Sudamerica App? will the link be free now as last season?? How many in the rugby world (not just South America) would pay to see these games?

IMHPO, the Argentine Union missed the big picture, or they could at least come out and be more transparent as in why they are taking this route and the goal behind it. If they find a better sporting alternative for 2022, Jaguares XV will leave the SLAR undoubtedly and I cannot imagine a queue of buisinessmen wanting to back a new SLAR project with the UAR. I could go on forever with more ramifications, but don't want to write a (longer) monologue :lol:

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby carbonero » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 04:59

UAR’s termination letter to Ceibos owner > https://www.cordobaxv.com.ar/las-razone ... -a-ceibos/

The core argument about the changes in SLAR’s structure is bullshit. They also accuse him of failing to cover some expenses. If that checks out, they have some grounds for termination. Riccomi already said that he will sue. My gut is that they settle before it gets to court.

I can’t believe that he agreed to pay US$ 350.000 annually to the union. That figure doesn’t include other expenses like accommodation, travel, food, infrastructure, etc. It seems like the worst piece of business in the world. The UAR honestly did him a favor. Ceibos was going under either way.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 09:54

Why does it surprise you that he agreed to pay such a sum? If I'm not mistaken private investors were meant to pay 50% of a million.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby carbonero » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 15:42

I thought he was investing one million over five years. No way he can break even under those terms. Matchday revenue is not enough and the main sponsor of the francise is one of his companies. Also, signing a deal in dollars is suicide in this country.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 22:54

I can’t believe that he agreed to pay US$ 350.000 annually to the union. That figure doesn’t include other expenses like accommodation, travel, food, infrastructure, etc.


People here were talking about 1 million dollars/year. If it doesn't include the expenses, it is pretty much what to expect. Hence my ceticism since 2019 about all this stuff. The fact Argentina had a private investor wanting to do such business was a big thing, which means breaking up this way is realy bad for the future of this league.

I guess the 35.000/month more or less covers the team's salaries? It was UAR and Ceibos who payed the players and coaches, right?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 23:02

One thing I can't understand: why Argentina would name the franchise as "Jaguares XV" and not simply "Jaguares"? I can't see a reason since there won't be another league for a "Jaguares" to play in 2021.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 17 Jan 2021, 23:39

Why degrading the prestige of a franchise that reached Super Rugby final by using its name for a team that will have players two steps below that?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 02:47

victorsra wrote:
I can’t believe that he agreed to pay US$ 350.000 annually to the union. That figure doesn’t include other expenses like accommodation, travel, food, infrastructure, etc.


People here were talking about 1 million dollars/year. If it doesn't include the expenses, it is pretty much what to expect. Hence my ceticism since 2019 about all this stuff. The fact Argentina had a private investor wanting to do such business was a big thing, which means breaking up this way is realy bad for the future of this league.

I guess the 35.000/month more or less covers the team's salaries? It was UAR and Ceibos who payed the players and coaches, right?


All of that seems crazy. Were they owned by a private investor, or not? Or was the agreed sum just the projected expenses of the team and UAR managed that? If that's how it was, that's pretty strange if you're calling him an "owner" it's as if he owns nothing.

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