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WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

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WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 04:01

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... y-concerns


...finally some common sense from wr

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 09:42

As against as you may be, this topic headline is way out of touch. Everybody deserves respect.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 21:42

And the headline is basicaly wrong in tecnical terms, the honorable and so respectful nazi moderator doesn't even know what he allegedly read...
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 21:49

Anyway, when WR anounced the group to review this matter they already indicated that this woul likely be the result.

This is a problem related to how the game creates categories. Sex and Age have always been the easiest and doable ways to divide sports. Recently we say the age approach being discussed, with the creation of "weight" rugby. Instead of spliting kids and teens by age, there is a possibility of grouping them by weight. For women's sports, maybe such idea can help in the future, at least at amateur level.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 21:56

I have long thought that weight categories could make rugby more inclusive. Sri Lanka vs Madagascar in the under 90kg World Cup final?

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Jul 2020, 22:10

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I have long thought that weight categories could make rugby more inclusive. Sri Lanka vs Madagascar in the under 90kg World Cup final?


At amateur level it can work in countries where many people are involved. Where rugby is small, it is not doable, unfortunatly. At professional level is more complicated to be sustainable. Anyway, many team sports could try a mixed category, with weight restrictions, for exemple.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 06:41

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I have long thought that weight categories could make rugby more inclusive. Sri Lanka vs Madagascar in the under 90kg World Cup final?


No, it would still be the same teams, just with their smallest/thinnest players. Cheslin Kolbe, Faf de Klerk, even Jonny Wilkinson seemed to be under 90kg. Beauden Barrett has 92kg, so with just a bit of a different diet, he would be avaiable.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 09:26

I agree with the decision from WR but also agree the title of the thread is out of line.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 09:33

victorsra wrote:Anyway, when WR anounced the group to review this matter they already indicated that this woul likely be the result.

This is a problem related to how the game creates categories. Sex and Age have always been the easiest and doable ways to divide sports. Recently we say the age approach being discussed, with the creation of "weight" rugby. Instead of spliting kids and teens by age, there is a possibility of grouping them by weight. For women's sports, maybe such idea can help in the future, at least at amateur level.


The solution to this has been simple from the start. If you're male you play in mens teams, if you're female you play in women's teams. People can live by what ever identity they feel is comfortable with them, that hurts nobody, but sports are segregated by sex for a reason, not just for competitive fairness, but for safety also. Trans people should never be denied the chance to play sport, but sport cannot accomodate them to the degree they wish. There has to be some responsibility by the trans person to consider their competitors right to fair competition and safety.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby iul » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 12:48

thatrugbyguy wrote:I agree with the decision from WR but also agree the title of the thread is out of line.

Why? That's what they are. They're men pretending to be women

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 13:50

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I agree with the decision from WR but also agree the title of the thread is out of line.

Why? That's what they are. They're men pretending to be women

Dumb or cynical.
Last edited by victorsra on Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 13:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 13:53

thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:Anyway, when WR anounced the group to review this matter they already indicated that this woul likely be the result.

This is a problem related to how the game creates categories. Sex and Age have always been the easiest and doable ways to divide sports. Recently we say the age approach being discussed, with the creation of "weight" rugby. Instead of spliting kids and teens by age, there is a possibility of grouping them by weight. For women's sports, maybe such idea can help in the future, at least at amateur level.


The solution to this has been simple from the start. If you're male you play in mens teams, if you're female you play in women's teams. People can live by what ever identity they feel is comfortable with them, that hurts nobody, but sports are segregated by sex for a reason, not just for competitive fairness, but for safety also. Trans people should never be denied the chance to play sport, but sport cannot accomodate them to the degree they wish. There has to be some responsibility by the trans person to consider their competitors right to fair competition and safety.


Ok, but why not develop a mixed rugby with weight references as well for whoever is interested?

My club had women training with men while they were few to form their own team. That was pretty positive experience we had but obviously it would've been better with some adjustments.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 14:18

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I agree with the decision from WR but also agree the title of the thread is out of line.

Why? That's what they are. They're men pretending to be women


Pretending suggests it's something some of them can simply turn off. Drag Queens pretend, Gender Dysphoria is a real condition and I've watched enough from people within that community to know many are not pretending. For whatever reason some wires were crossed when they were born that makes them think they are born in the wrong body. There are some who do pretend simply to get attention, there's no doubt about that, and many of those crazies are the ones who think simply calling yourself a woman makes you one and want to ruin women's opportunities in sport simply to get an advantage for themselves. These are selfish males who care nothing for the obvious advantage they have over women. But there are also plenty in the same community who are fully aware they aren't biological women and are now fighting back against these crazies, because it's the crazy one who are making the rest of them look insane.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 14:26

victorsra wrote:
Ok, but why not develop a mixed rugby with weight references as well for whoever is interested?

My club had women training with men while they were few to form their own team. That was pretty positive experience we had but obviously it would've been better with some adjustments.


Because mens bodies, even at a similar size and weight to a woman, is still likely to be 25-30% stronger. We're simply built differently. We have different muscle fibres and a different centre of balance, different bone density, hands sizes, bigger muscles, etc. Women have pelvises that are not only wider but tilt forward more than men, smaller ribcages, smaller lungs. But there's also just the moral issues too. At the end of the day ask yourself this question - would you want to tackle a woman in a full contact rugby game? The answer for me is a simple no. And even if I did, there's a good chance I would purposely avoid trying to tackle her hard simply because in the back of my mind I'm playing against a woman, so I wouldn't be giving my best effort. I have no issues hitting another man with as big a tackle as I can make. I do have an issue with doing that to a woman.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 17:21

There are many men 20-30% stronger than other men playing together amateur rugby. I'm skinny, I've played against much stronger people and trained with women, as I said. And if this is the problem, just put different weights for sexes in a mixed match. Not an issue.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby johnbirch » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 11:34

There are male and female categories in almost every sport for a reason. And it works.

Pretending you can get around it with weight categoies etc. is a nonsense. Are you going to put male and female flyweight boxers against each other? No - because its more than weight. Its bone density and muscle mass and many other things.

I think the real trajedy here is that until all this blew up chances are that transexual people (especially post-operative) were playing rugby in their preferred categories and no-one noticed much or cared. But because of the outragious behaviour of probably a small number of (almost entirely male) campaigners, demanding that men can become women just by saying so and without any need to do anything else, the whole thing has got out of hand and WR have had to act.

And once they did that there really was no other decision possible. You do not make rules and laws that are okay for 80% of situations and the cross your fingers. WR could not assume that every transwoman would be a 5'6 and 8st. They have to legislate for the worst case scenario, like a 6'4" 18st prop who discovers his feminine side. With studies also showing that reducing testosterone has little or no effect there is really no other way if you want to maintain a women's caregory in the sport.

Does that mean that transwomen cannot play rugby? No - but they will have to play with men. Is that fair? No - but it is not World Rugby's fault. The trans-campaigners and the "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman" have destroyed it for everyone. And it is a trajedy for trans people who may have been playing for years but may now have to stop.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 15:17

Good intervention, it's not easy to have certainties about but I think to agree with this last post

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 07:51

Really good post JohnBirch. Spot on.

Btw can we simply change this Thread title to "WR may ban trans people from women's rugby". It was probably intended to be funny, but it is simply not.
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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 09:38

RugbyLiebe wrote:Really good post JohnBirch. Spot on.

Btw can we simply change this Thread title to "WR may ban trans people from women's rugby". It was probably intended to be funny, but it is simply not.

It was intended to be accurate and it is

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 09:51

iul wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Really good post JohnBirch. Spot on.

Btw can we simply change this Thread title to "WR may ban trans people from women's rugby". It was probably intended to be funny, but it is simply not.

It was intended to be accurate and it is


Would you write. "World Rugby allows one more substitute for the overweight guys" (when it means that there is one more replacement for the 1st row allowed?)
I think it is rather childish to write "dudes with lipstick".
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Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 13:54

RugbyLiebe wrote:
iul wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Really good post JohnBirch. Spot on.

Btw can we simply change this Thread title to "WR may ban trans people from women's rugby". It was probably intended to be funny, but it is simply not.

It was intended to be accurate and it is


Would you write. "World Rugby allows one more substitute for the overweight guys" (when it means that there is one more replacement for the 1st row allowed?)
I think it is rather childish to write "dudes with lipstick".

No, I would never use the word "overweight", I would call them fatties.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 09:48

thatrugbyguy wrote:I agree with the decision from WR but also agree the title of the thread is out of line.


Same here. There were so many better ways to phrase it.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 10:00

thatrugbyguy wrote:Because mens bodies, even at a similar size and weight to a woman, is still likely to be 25-30% stronger. We're simply built differently. We have different muscle fibres and a different centre of balance, different bone density, hands sizes, bigger muscles, etc. Women have pelvises that are not only wider but tilt forward more than men, smaller ribcages, smaller lungs. But there's also just the moral issues too. At the end of the day ask yourself this question - would you want to tackle a woman in a full contact rugby game? The answer for me is a simple no. And even if I did, there's a good chance I would purposely avoid trying to tackle her hard simply because in the back of my mind I'm playing against a woman, so I wouldn't be giving my best effort. I have no issues hitting another man with as big a tackle as I can make. I do have an issue with doing that to a woman.

victorsra wrote:There are many men 20-30% stronger than other men playing together amateur rugby. I'm skinny, I've played against much stronger people and trained with women, as I said. And if this is the problem, just put different weights for sexes in a mixed match. Not an issue.


Sorry, it is not as simple as that victorsra. I have experience in playing full contact matches against adult men and school boys (15-18 year olds) and have asked adult men to act as opposition to the women's teams that I coach BUT with the strict condition that they play at 50%. My experience is that men who weigh the same as women are almost always bigger, stronger and faster and will almost always seriously hurt a woman if they play at 100%. Men's bone density and their muscles play a huge role in this.

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Re: WR may ban dudes with lipstick on from women's rugby

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 10:03

johnbirch wrote:There are male and female categories in almost every sport for a reason. And it works.

Pretending you can get around it with weight categoies etc. is a nonsense. Are you going to put male and female flyweight boxers against each other? No - because its more than weight. Its bone density and muscle mass and many other things.

I think the real trajedy here is that until all this blew up chances are that transexual people (especially post-operative) were playing rugby in their preferred categories and no-one noticed much or cared. But because of the outragious behaviour of probably a small number of (almost entirely male) campaigners, demanding that men can become women just by saying so and without any need to do anything else, the whole thing has got out of hand and WR have had to act.

And once they did that there really was no other decision possible. You do not make rules and laws that are okay for 80% of situations and the cross your fingers. WR could not assume that every transwoman would be a 5'6 and 8st. They have to legislate for the worst case scenario, like a 6'4" 18st prop who discovers his feminine side. With studies also showing that reducing testosterone has little or no effect there is really no other way if you want to maintain a women's caregory in the sport.

Does that mean that transwomen cannot play rugby? No - but they will have to play with men. Is that fair? No - but it is not World Rugby's fault. The trans-campaigners and the "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman" have destroyed it for everyone. And it is a trajedy for trans people who may have been playing for years but may now have to stop.


Spot on!

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