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German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

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German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 05:43

It's official - Holland is declared winner of the pool of the German international side.
While Germany will nevertheless resume its itinerary and play the postponed games against Lithuania at home and Ukraine on the road.
(The unplayed games of Switzerland and Holland count as drawn.)

The promotion-relegation playoff game of the Dutch for the 2021 Rugby Europe Championship will not be a derby in Belgium or a trip to Portugal (who were promoted the season before.)
They will face mighty Romania instead. The Oaks were seen off by Belgium on bonus points in the truncated 2020 season.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 06:26

Kim Lombard wrote:It's official - Holland is declared winner of the pool of the German international side.
While Germany will nevertheless resume its itinerary and play the postponed games against Lithuania at home and Ukraine on the road.
(The unplayed games of Switzerland and Holland count as drawn.)

The promotion-relegation playoff game of the Dutch for the 2021 Rugby Europe Championship will not be a derby in Belgium or a trip to Portugal (who were promoted the season before.)
They will face mighty Romania instead. The Oaks were seen off by Belgium on bonus points in the truncated 2020 season.


Welcome to the forum. There is a dedicated thread for REC-things. Do you have a source for the claim that Belgium won't play Romania (they would have played in the last REC-round)?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 14:54

ADRT - Ad hoc Convention of Rugby Germany

Did any occasional visitor of this thread attend that meaningful event on July 18, 2020 in Heusenstamm? Totalrugby.de covered the results. Deafening silence whether current issues of the federation were discussed at all. It abstained this time from offering a live ticker. Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung Heidelberg remained vague as well.

It was common wisdom in the build-up that the DRV would get its funding. Despite all the noise beforehand and the kerfuffle about Alexander Michl. So were the six hours just deliberations and voting about the size of the raise and its timing?

What about the criticism voiced beforehand? Were any of these points mentioned? (I suppose, I do not need to elaborate.)
Very often, the federation has got a story to tell about aspect that initially look odd to an outsider. Was this opportunity used?

Nobody even reported who represented the federation and spoke on its behalf (beyond president Hees, which is merely stating the obvious.)
Hearsay would also do, if reliable.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 05:04

"odd" that is one way to put it when looking at that list. However, the current management of the federation should be given credit for not sweeping the EUR 830.000 liability under the carpet owed to Jurgen Zeiger. It is now only due at the end of 2030. Maybe that is even better news than the 165.000 afforded by the membership for 2020 and again for 2021.

Nobody will be more happy than Zeiger about this lifeline. After Harry Hees had publicly discussed alternatives for dealing with this, two of which included writing it off entirely (“build a statue for him,” “the ugly legal solution.”)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Fri, 31 Jul 2020, 06:17

to back that up (in case German is intelligible:)
https://www.rugby-verband.de/klare-wort ... rald-hees/

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Sat, 01 Aug 2020, 15:12

(To "Sarry") But this did not quite answer V's question ...

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Mon, 03 Aug 2020, 15:19

Wish I knew more.
- DRV official were obviously chuffed, once they got the payments approved.
- Michl was enabled by a number of Bavarian clubs to use their votes.
- At times, the counting of the crucial votes was messy. To the extend that voting had to be repeated.
- The organizer were quite restrictive on who was allowed to witness the proceedings.
- Claus-Peter Bach, singled out by Totalrugby as a co signatory (with a majority of the state federations) of a critical letter to the DRV request for increased member participation fee (also backdated,) was present. But did not represent Baden-Wuerrtemberg (Hans-Joachim Wallenwein was.)
- Did not hear that altercations led to physical harm or any necessity for medical treatment.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 04 Aug 2020, 07:26

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Wish I knew more.
- DRV official were obviously chuffed, once they got the payments approved.
- Michl was enabled by a number of Bavarian clubs to use their votes.
- At times, the counting of the crucial votes was messy. To the extend that voting had to be repeated.
- The organizer were quite restrictive on who was allowed to witness the proceedings.
- Claus-Peter Bach, singled out by Totalrugby as a co signatory (with a majority of the state federations) of a critical letter to the DRV request for increased member participation fee (also backdated,) was present. But did not represent Baden-Wuerrtemberg (Hans-Joachim Wallenwein was.)


I wasn't there and haven't heard a lot about it. But I don't know what you actually want to hear. The federation is facing bankruptcy thanks to years of mismanagement and an apparent catastrophic Stalker era (as you all know I was for him and thought that a CFO of Adidas knows his money). Also it has less income from their members than their basic services (like the DRV office) costs and travels to national team games.
So we needed a pay rise (the sum each member pays to the federation is a joke for German standards. I think it is around 10€. So there were apparently arguments (which is good in a democratic society) The compromise was not a standard rise but a special contribution for 10€ this year and then another special contribution of 10€ per member next year. That's it.
Everything else is from my perspective small-minded village dispute or an Else-Kling-syndrome.

- The Bavarian federation is very well led and if you don't travel to a meeting it is smart to give your president the right to vote in your behalf. Saves costs and time. It is called efficiency. Also most Bavarian clubs were for a rise despite having close to no national team players btw. That's called foresight and solidarity.

Everything else falls under this shameful paragraph of yours. Some people love to see the world burn.

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:- Did not hear that altercations led to physical harm or any necessity for medical treatment.

Why even bring up a rumour that there were altercations that lead to physical harm? What the actual fuck? In the age of "alternative facts", this kind of posting really makes me angry. Grow up it is not funny in the slightest.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Tue, 04 Aug 2020, 16:43

Thanks Rugbyliebe for this summary of the Totalrugby report.

The event was important enough to be present.
I trust he spoke to partipants and dissected proceedings. All in order to be in a position to give a representative account.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 05 Aug 2020, 07:16

Kim Lombard wrote:Thanks Rugbyliebe for this summary of the Totalrugby report.

The event was important enough to be present.
I trust he spoke to partipants and dissected proceedings. All in order to be in a position to give a representative account.


What I heard was: long discussions about financials, nobody even brought up an alternative solution to higher fees to the Union, apart from that the regular small quarrels.
I am not sure, what else people want to know from the meeting.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Wed, 05 Aug 2020, 15:01

Kim Lombard wrote:Thanks Rugbyliebe for this summary of the Totalrugby report.

The event was important enough to be present.
I trust he spoke to partipants and dissected proceedings. All in order to be in a position to give a representative account.


That is an accurate description of what Totalrugby is known for. Not allowing for a a live ticker was too bad through. Obvious reason - Corona cancel culture (using the WLAN might have been too dangerous.)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 05:31

RugbyLiebe wrote: So there were apparently arguments (which is good in a democratic society)


I see, you are taking a multi-faceted view. Lively democratic debate is something to be proud of. But this should stay behind closed doors. I actually wonder myself at times how mature the public is (let alone a forum like our esteemed 2Rugby.com)

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 06 Aug 2020, 06:45

Kim Lombard wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote: So there were apparently arguments (which is good in a democratic society)


I see, you are taking a multi-faceted view. Lively democratic debate is something to be proud of. But this should stay behind closed doors. I actually wonder myself at times how mature the public is (let alone a forum like our esteemed 2Rugby.com)


Agree 100%
We see, what the rapid tabloidization, social media brought us, leads to. It seems more important to know who had a argument with who, and not, that the DRV is now able to plan the season 2020/21 (including RET participation btw.) and apparently beforehand took the necessary time to have everyone a say about it, before voting on it.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Fri, 07 Aug 2020, 05:29

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Kim Lombard wrote:Thanks Rugbyliebe for this summary of the Totalrugby report.

I am not sure, what else people want to know from the meeting.


Hi RugbyLiebe,
To explain what I meant:
It would have been forthright by Nils Zurawski allowing for the federation, the butt of his criticsm, to engage and address what he had identified as sticky points. And allow for scrutiny of this Hamburg (or St. Pauli) view of the world by the representatives of German rugby present.
Same applies to the many signatories of the letter of the regional federations. That position was not considered to be a trivial matter by Mr. Michl (he resigned.) And engaging it was left to Totalrugby. An unhappy task, made them look a bit thin skinned.
Some discussion points might be of general concern: EUR 80.000 to be paid back to the DOSB which were misspent (and the ignominy of being exposed to a probe which substantiated this necessity.) Or an expanded sevens competition to make that blend of rugby less elite and more than a once-a-year-affair (seen by some as further eating away at the main game.)
To name but few.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 07 Aug 2020, 07:00

Vultureblack wrote:Hi RugbyLiebe,
To explain what I meant:


I have no idea what your point is. If there was some misspending of public funds, there is a place to talk about it, and that's the AGM. I mean the straight forward fight for not using 7s funds for XVs was one of the main argument point between Wilhelm and Mohr (Wild). But again, that's a bloody AGM thing, not public. I sometimes wonder, if in German rugby people really have overall rugby in mind or if they simply can't think two-three steps ahead, what their actions will possibly have as consequences or they simply don't care to live in their small world rugby bubble (I think that's probably more likely).

Haven't talked to Alex Michl yet, but he was in the council as a representative of all the regional unions. If some regional Unions write a letter with positions and don't even inform him, what on earth would you do? I would immediately step down, he did the same.

About an expanded 7s competition. That's on the clubs.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Kim Lombard » Fri, 07 Aug 2020, 15:03

RugbyLiebe wrote:So we needed a pay rise (the sum each member pays to the federation is a joke for German standards. I think it is around 10€. So there were apparently arguments (which is good in a democratic society) The compromise was not a standard rise but a special contribution for 10€ this year and then another special contribution of 10€ per member next year. That's it.
Everything else is from my perspective small-minded village dispute or an Else-Kling-syndrome.

- The Bavarian federation is very well led and if you don't travel to a meeting it is smart .


I'm so glad, German mate called be back. Got that with the Kling-Syndrome at last.
Very funny book about a likeable communist and his kangaroo. Gave some probes, who would have thought that. German sense of humour.

Sorry, back to the touchy topics of German rugby.
Or rather not, if too-free-a-speech about that is irking some too much. If a debate whether a debate about that (how permissible a debate is) may be permitted at least.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Sat, 08 Aug 2020, 15:57

It's funny. But it happens with languages. There is not a single fitting term in English encompassing the full meaning of “mündig” in German (I am used to have it the other way around.)
It would be of age and empowered. That stuff, responsible, mature.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 07:08

Kim Lombard wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Everything else is from my perspective small-minded village dispute or an Else-Kling-syndrome.
.


I'm so glad, German mate called be back. Got that with the Kling-Syndrome at last.
Very funny book about a likeable communist and his kangaroo. Gave some probes, who would have thought that. German sense of humour.


While the Kangaroo chronicles are funny, Else Kling is another thing. She is a character from a long running German tv soap opera Lindenstraße (running from 1985 up until march this year). She is a rather annoying janitor who wants to know everything about everyone's lifes and her biggest joy is making nasty remarks about everyone.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 07:33

Hard to believe that meaningful news like the sudden resignation of Ingo Goessgen yesterday is reported nowhere. He occupied a key office in the national structure and is a power broker owing to the vibrancy of his club.

Calling it suppression would dramatize this failure, it's a passive act. But a degree off disarray is evident, when his institution does not function enough any more to announce it.

I don't think even somebody committed who nevertheless sees limits to open debate like Rugbyliebe would have it this way.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 08:50

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Hard to believe that meaningful news like the sudden resignation of Ingo Goessgen yesterday is reported nowhere. He occupied a key office in the national structure and is a power broker owing to the vibrancy of his club.

Calling it suppression would dramatize this failure, it's a passive act. But a degree off disarray is evident, when his institution does not function enough any more to announce it.

I don't think even somebody committed who nevertheless sees limits to open debate like Rugbyliebe would have it this way.


I think your post is typical about the problems rugby in Germany is facing. Don't get me wrong, but this is so tiresome, but lets break this down:

The question you should ask yourself, before looking for a conspiracy theory is: what exactly do you do for this irrelevant sport in Germany?
Yes, rugby is irrelevant. Therefore nobody reports about anything happening in rugby. Exceptions: a) a rugby club itself reports about it or b) something so drastic happens, that it is a news, which doesn't matter if rugby or not.

So where have you read about the step-down of the president of RK 03 Berlin (first mistake you made here, not announcing everything like just a short sentence who Ingo is and what he does in rugby)? Tell us complete news. From which position did he actually step down? If you have heard about, what makes it relevant for somebody outside of the supposed Berlin rugby bubble?
If you are interested in the news, ask yourself, why don't you spread it on a open-social-media-platform like totalrugby.de (if you haven't realized, you are allowed to publish anything there if you want to).

Yeah, I know, we all got a lot to do and not only nowadays, but come on, instead of crying foul, why don't you do basic homework and provide us with a complete and open info, instead writing half a sentence where most of the important information is missing.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Werner » Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 09:54

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Hard to believe that meaningful news like the sudden resignation of Ingo Goessgen yesterday is reported nowhere.
How do you know that despite it wasn't reported?

The clubs of the Bundesliga were informed that he stepped down from his positions within the Bundesliga. At the General Meeting next saturday his successor can be elected. The protocol of the meeting will be made public. Just as usual. No big issue.

btw. As far as I know, he is still the president of "his" rugby club.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Bogdan » Mon, 10 Aug 2020, 17:43

Goessgen stepped down because his company struggles due to the Corona pandemic and he has to concentrate all his power on his company to guide it through this challenging times.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 05:17

Bogdan wrote:Goessgen stepped down because his company struggles due to the Corona pandemic and he has to concentrate all his power on his company to guide it through this challenging times.


Thanks Bodgdan. The email (see Werner's contribution) was sent to a variety of people, the clubs, on Sunday 17:43 by one of the other remaining senior member of the Rugbyliga board.

German-rugby.de reported this on the same day (somebody made me aware of this website. I wish I had known it earlier.) Some guidance was added there.

Totalrugby did not until today. Nor does he about a big meeting scheduled for 15th of August, 2020, lengthy agenda. Also known by many since Sunday afternoon.

Election, among others (see Werner,) Goessgen successor. Propped up by point 8.1.1. “Spielplan 2020/21 .. Berücksichtigung Corona.” Maybe that is a forgone conclusion, after the recent sceptical remarks by Colin Grzanna.

That is the real world, the facebook-discussion-world for some reason is not supposed to know. Don't ask me why. Especially since I do not see any of this being harmful to the leadership of the federation.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Werner » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 06:32

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:German-rugby.de reported this
Not really. Sounds like 'alternate' news and might not pass a fact check properly.
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:lengthy agenda. Also known by many since Sunday afternoon.
The agenda was announced in July and could therefore have been known earlier. As far as I know, the only additional topic is the election of the now vacant position of Mr. Goessgen.

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Re: German Rugby restart of competitions and financing

Postby Vultureblack » Tue, 11 Aug 2020, 08:10

Werner wrote:
Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:Hard to believe that meaningful news like the sudden resignation of Ingo Goessgen yesterday is reported nowhere.
How do you know that despite it wasn't reported?

The clubs of the Bundesliga were informed that he stepped down from his positions within the Bundesliga. At the General Meeting next saturday


Well what I have not read about it on the facebook side of the German rugby world (federation, TR, rugby Deutschland group) as yet. But there is still a tug-of-war going on about the restart. Federation adamant for the draft schedule to be implemented. Referees advising strongly against it. For example.

It is a tough situation. Should anybody talk about that, or not? Is it important?

No shop window competition will be hard for the clubs with significant income from the turnstiles. TSV H'heim argued forcefully in public to complete the 2019/20 season over the summer. Few clubs do more to attract spectators than RK 03 Berlin (see podcast Offenes Gedrange Episode3 “Bratwurst bis Sagemehl.”)
Now Ingo Goessgen made his decision known. A week before he was due to be re-elected.

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