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Inter-continental competitons

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 16:43

Armchair Fan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It is definitely not just semantics. In England the rugby clubs and football clubs are all clubs, not franchises. The Netball Superleague teams are all franchises, not clubs. The BBL teams (British Basketball League) are all franchises but some, not all, are also clubs. The clubs have quite a long history which predates the BBL. They are part of the community and have volunteers, youth teams, women's teams etc. If they decide to drop out the the BBL they still continue to exist as clubs. But there are also franchises. The franchises have very different histories which involve relocating several times and name changes. They are companies with the purpose of running a professional sports team. They provide a product which they hope people will pay to consume. They don't have youth teams etc. If they leave the BBL they cease to exist.


Gonna need you to show me what "members" of many of the Premier League clubs get other than ticket discounts. For example: https://tickets.mancity.com/memberships

https://tickets.brightonandhovealbion.com/memberships

I'm not seeing any ability to be a member of Premier League clubs where you get to use the club facility or have a say in what happens etc.

I don't know the current legal status of sports clubs in England, but I think I can understand this through Spanish lenses.

In 1992 all clubs playing in professional competitions were supposed to become what we call Sociedades Anónimas Deportivas so they could legally respond in case of going bankrupt. Only clubs proving they had made money in the previous few years were allowed to remain members clubs (Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Athletic Club, Osasuna).

These four teams are the only ones that remain publicly owned in our top tiers and their members vote présidents, must approve accountability... It's true that they have little by little tended to be more like the rest. I've got a friend Who is a Real Madrid member and used to go to their swimming pool many years ago. That no longer exists. They sold their properties in Madrid city centre to modernise the team and pay debts.

So even though we say all are football clubs, only these four still have members as such. And these four have progressively followed the same path as others and have lost the club meaning that still remains in Argentina for example, although some aspects resist (FC Barcelona being multisport, with both professionnal and amateur sections). Yet we keep calling all of them clubs because they were born as such and only transformed because the law forced them too, with some people still holding minority ownerships derived from that process.

Anyway things vary widely from country to country, even from sport to sport (only happens here in football and basketball). In Germany no single owner is allowed to hold more than 49% of a club.

In Brazil is basicaly like in Argentina, like Hernan explained. I think that's a pattern in South America.

Anyway, it is important to note one thing:

- In leagues with promotion-relegation systems, clubs don't own their spots in the league. Which means the "franchise" model doesn't really apply. A club plays many different competitions organised by different leagues or federations at the same time!

- In closed leagues, franchises have some sort of ownership over their spots (there are different models, some of the it is the league that owns the team, but that only means the team exists to fill that spot). Of course, this doesn't exclude a multisports club or a "social club" to be part of a closed league. In a way, the league and its teams are directly linked. That's why the idea of franchise and brand makes sense.

The only exceptions I see are MLS and A-League soccer teams playing continental cups because the soccer system makes them exceptions and they needed to adapt to the global system. Which means they are truly exceptions. AFAIK FIFA has a rule all countries must operate open systems and that's why USA has the US Open Cup offering a spot in the Concacaf Champions League, for exemple.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 18:31

England's newest franchise is Leeds Rhinos Netball which joins the Netball Superleague in 2021. The club is Leeds Rhinos. The brand is Leeds Rhinos. The franchise is Leeds Rhinos Netball. Leeds Rhinos is the second rugby club to create a Netball Superleague franchise. The first being Wasps. Saracens are in partnership with Netball Superleague team Saracens Mavericks but they didn't start the franchise and it still retains its Mavericks brand in addition to the Saracens brand.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 18:47

Well, but the Netball Superleague is a closed league, that enters in what I just said. Clubs can enter a closed league and operate as franchises, nothing forbids.

For exemple, many football clubs in Latin America or Continental Europe have basketball. For most of the history, those basketball teams played leagues just like soccer, with promotion-relegation, with teams going from amateur to professional very often. Those clubs have departments, football is one, basktball is another one. Recently, some countries opted for closed leagues in basketball, others kept promotion-relegation. It is true the basketball team and the football team are usualy autonomous departments and sometimes operate as different brands, but are they? In the end, the major brand is the club and its departments (that may have bought their places in closed leagues or just operate in open systems) are just segments of the same brand... it is like a family branding.

We could see this family branding approach as well in football clubs like Manchester City or Atletico de Madrid that founded clubs in other countries. Red Bull is the same thing, although it has some different aspects from City or Atlético (Red Bull soccer clubs were independent clubs, non related to each other in the past, that were bought by Red Bull, that transformed them in new things... but let's not forget Red Bull bought clubs and rebranded them).

In the end, professional sport makes historical institutions, born in amateur times as social clubs, adapt to the systems in place.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 20:16

English rugby clubs are not very famous. The most famous are Harlequins, Saracens, Wasps and Bath.

https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/sport/fame ... -teams/all

They are less famous in England than quite minor English football clubs and much less famous than the most famous European football clubs; Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, AC Milan and Bayern Munich.

https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/sport/fame ... -teams/all

By adding other sports teams they can become more famous and a franchise is a quick way of doing this.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sun, 04 Oct 2020, 21:04

Adding other sports is a century old thing in Latin America and Continental Europe. It is only viable to have a second or third or fourth professional sport if you can sustain it by itself. In other word, only if that sport can draw enough sponsors, fans, etc, to make it self-sustainable. That's why many famous football clubs have unstable histories with other sports (opening and closing professional teams in other sports from time to time).

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 21:12

Nacional and Peñarol are multi-sport clubs, but the facilities are inaccessible for members - they are restricted to competitive matches and training (though most are amateur).

Members pay fees to pledge loyalty and to get ticket discounts for the major matches.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 21:14

Back to the subject of the thread...

The South African union is insisting on playing at the Pro 14 or whatever number they reach. However the 2020/21 season is one month away, and there's a vacancy to be filled quickly.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 07 Oct 2020, 21:36

NaBUru38 wrote:Back to the subject of the thread...

The South African union is insisting on playing at the Pro 14 or whatever number they reach. However the 2020/21 season is one month away, and there's a vacancy to be filled quickly.


The 2020/21 Pro 14 season has started already. It started on Friday.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 08 Oct 2020, 05:12

NaBUru38 wrote:Back to the subject of the thread...

The South African union is insisting on playing at the Pro 14 or whatever number they reach. However the 2020/21 season is one month away, and there's a vacancy to be filled quickly.


That won't be happening in 20/21. Global travel will have to return to normal before any South African teams return to the competition.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby armchair_expert » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 11:25

According to Rapport, "The Cheetahs are investigating the possibility of playing in tournaments in Russia and the USA"
https://www.netwerk24.com/Sport/Rugby/c ... k-20201018
Die Cheetahs ondersoek die moontlikheid om in toernooie in Rusland en die VSA te speel nadat hulle en die Kings uit die vergrote Pro16-reeks geskop is.

Deelname aan enige van die toernooie sal deur die Cheetahs self en hul borge befonds moet word. As hulle welslae daar behaal, kan dit finansiële voordele vir die Vrystaters inhou.

As die Cheetahs in Rusland speel, kan die franchise met ’n ompad wat deur die Europese Continental Skildtoernooi en Europese Uitdaagbekertoernooi loop, vir die Kampioenebekertoernooi (voorheen bekend as die Heinekenbeker) kwalifiseer, met groot prysgeld ter sprake.

Die Cheetahs hoop om binne die volgende 14 dae duidelikheid oor die toernooi in Rusland te verkry, en of deelname aan die Europese Uitdaagbeker en Kampioenebeker wel enigsins moontlik is.

Gesprekke tussen die Cheetahs en hul vennote hieroor, en ander sensitiewe sake, is in ’n vroeë stadium.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 12:51

Great news! This is what I suggested to Cheetahs and Kings. We have 3 cities to choose from for them Saransk, Kaliningrad or Sochi. It's got great new infrastructure. My advice is to choose Saransk. You will gather more fans there.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 17:20

Dude, there is no logic of relocating unless a Russian city is paying for it. In the business POV, there is no such thing as a team in exile. Your brand is dead if you don't play at home. It only works if you are basicaly renting your team, like Falcons in Malaysia (or if it a purely technical project like Pampas XV in South Africa). The question is who would pay in USA or Russia to host the Cheetahs (a non-valuable brand).

Kings are dead. You probably aren't following the news.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 17:31

armchair_expert wrote:According to Rapport, "The Cheetahs are investigating the possibility of playing in tournaments in Russia and the USA"
https://www.netwerk24.com/Sport/Rugby/c ... k-20201018
Die Cheetahs ondersoek die moontlikheid om in toernooie in Rusland en die VSA te speel nadat hulle en die Kings uit die vergrote Pro16-reeks geskop is.

Deelname aan enige van die toernooie sal deur die Cheetahs self en hul borge befonds moet word. As hulle welslae daar behaal, kan dit finansiële voordele vir die Vrystaters inhou.

As die Cheetahs in Rusland speel, kan die franchise met ’n ompad wat deur die Europese Continental Skildtoernooi en Europese Uitdaagbekertoernooi loop, vir die Kampioenebekertoernooi (voorheen bekend as die Heinekenbeker) kwalifiseer, met groot prysgeld ter sprake.

Die Cheetahs hoop om binne die volgende 14 dae duidelikheid oor die toernooi in Rusland te verkry, en of deelname aan die Europese Uitdaagbeker en Kampioenebeker wel enigsins moontlik is.

Gesprekke tussen die Cheetahs en hul vennote hieroor, en ander sensitiewe sake, is in ’n vroeë stadium.


"The Cheetahs are investigating the possibility of playing in tournaments in Russia and the USA after they and the Kings were kicked out of the enlarged Pro16 series.

Participation in any of the tournaments will need to be funded by the Cheetahs themselves and their sponsors. If they succeed there, it could have financial benefits for the Free Staters.

If the Cheetahs play in Russia, the franchise with a detour running through the European Continental Shield Tournament and European Challenge Cup could qualify for the Champions Cup (formerly known as the Heineken Cup), with big prize money involved.

The Cheetahs hope to gain clarity on the tournament in Russia within the next 14 days, and whether participation in the European Challenge Cup and Champions Cup is at all possible.

Talks between the Cheetahs and their partners on this, and other sensitive issues, are at an early stage."

-----

First thing, Russia can't guarantee the Challenge Cup spot, as they aren't stakeholders of EPCR. Unless in the next weeks we see a Russian sponsorships deal with Challenge Cup or something like this.

The Continental Shield is dead. Unless that new competition is realy confirmed, there is no third european cup anymore.

Also, if it has to be payed by the Cheetahs, forget. This is the worst possible business model. Specialy relocating to a league with, what, 1k, 2k fans average? Also, they won't sell TV in South Africa for that, it is quite obvious. Cheetahs are desperate.

Just tell me one exemple of a team-in-exile that is a business success in sports world. Basicaly it doesn't exist. Teams like Kunlun Red Stars in KHL, Toronto Wolfpack in SL or the SAs in PRO14 play at home.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:33

The approximate format of the KRL in the season 2021.
11 teams play 10 rounds + playoffs (1\4, 1\2 and Finals) home and away. From June to early October.
And from the 2022 season, there will be opportunities for expanding the KRL.
15 teams play 14 rounds + playoffs (1/4, 1/2 and Finals) home and away. From mid-April to September/early October. The option of participating in European competitions is possible
1st place - Champions Cup
2-5 places - Challenge Cup
Possible participants in the 2022 season: Enisey-STM, Krasny Yar, Metallurg, Strela, Lokomotiv, VVA, Slava, CSKA, Bulava, Kuban + Cheetahs + Steaua + Timisoara + Batumi + Dinamo Tbilisi.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:45

How do you plan to attract clubs from Romania and Georgia to cooperation?
Will we need to occupy these countries for this? :D
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:45

STMKY wrote:The approximate format of the KRL in the season 2021.
11 teams play 10 rounds + playoffs (1\4, 1\2 and Finals) home and away. From June to early October.
And from the 2022 season, there will be opportunities for expanding the KRL.
15 teams play 14 rounds + playoffs (1/4, 1/2 and Finals) home and away. From mid-April to September/early October. The option of participating in European competitions is possible
1st place - Champions Cup
2-5 places - Challenge Cup
Possible participants in the 2022 season: Enisey-STM, Krasny Yar, Metallurg, Strela, Lokomotiv, VVA, Slava, CSKA, Bulava, Kuban + Cheetahs + Steaua + Timisoara + Batumi + Dinamo Tbilisi.


You are just making this up. You haven't even got the right Romanian teams. Baia Mare, Steaua and Dinamo Bucuresti are the teams interested in a Continental Club Competition. Not Timisoara. And there is no point including the worst teams in the Russian Premier League.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:48

I'm sure a 2 game series between Saracens and Cheetahs could be arranged.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:53

I think Russia needs to invite Cheetahs to tour Russia. 4-5 games per month.
Starting with game in Kaliningrad with Russian national team, game with Moscow team, two games in Krasnoyarsk and final match with Vladivostok Tigers. That would be really cool!
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:55

RPL is reformatted into KRL. Therefore, it is logical that Russian clubs remain. But outsiders need to be strengthened well. And you can't add Vladivostok and Dynamo Moscow. The league becomes international as the KHL.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 08:56

Vladivostok vs Cheetahs? Do not make me laugh. 0-150. Why is this needed?

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Vova12 » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 09:00

Of course with a reinforced composition. Here main advertisement of rugby in Far East.
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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 09:09

Lokomotiv would also deserve a game.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 13:40

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
STMKY wrote:The approximate format of the KRL in the season 2021.
11 teams play 10 rounds + playoffs (1\4, 1\2 and Finals) home and away. From June to early October.
And from the 2022 season, there will be opportunities for expanding the KRL.
15 teams play 14 rounds + playoffs (1/4, 1/2 and Finals) home and away. From mid-April to September/early October. The option of participating in European competitions is possible
1st place - Champions Cup
2-5 places - Challenge Cup
Possible participants in the 2022 season: Enisey-STM, Krasny Yar, Metallurg, Strela, Lokomotiv, VVA, Slava, CSKA, Bulava, Kuban + Cheetahs + Steaua + Timisoara + Batumi + Dinamo Tbilisi.


You are just making this up. You haven't even got the right Romanian teams. Baia Mare, Steaua and Dinamo Bucuresti are the teams interested in a Continental Club Competition. Not Timisoara. And there is no point including the worst teams in the Russian Premier League.

Of course he is. Like a child dreaming.

The most bizarre thing is to believe it makes sense to pay to have the Cheetahs.

If Russia has money, just contract more overseas players, like Japan. There is simply no reason of having those teams there. They don't bring more fans or better contracts.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby STMKY » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 15:03

I'll write to you when the Cheetahs play their first match in Saransk or another Russian city.

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Re: Inter-continental competitons

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 16:04

You'll write anyway, unfortunatly.

And this is not a bet. If the Cheetahs play in Russia as a team-in-exile (ie, never playing home matches in Bloemfontein), I'll make strong criticism anyway, just like I did about GRR and the idiotic Falcons move to Malaysia. Falcons are bankrupt now (ok, mostly because COVID disrupted the project, but that was barely sustainable anyway).

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