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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 09 May 2020, 10:56

German 1st league (in rugby union) abandoned for good, no national champion, no promotion, no relegation. Hard times.

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Re: German rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 May 2020, 14:03

Yes, and before the war Belfast clubs dominated the Irish league. IFA was founded in Belfast BTW, not Dublin. Northern Ireland is the successor of the pre-independence Irish national team.

After independence, a Dublin-based federation was needed in the eyes of the Irish Free State.

IRFU in the other hand was already based in Dublin and Ulster RU didn't broke away.

About non independent countries, Rugby also likes it... Cook Islands, Niue, Cayman Islands, Bermuda... I don't see much difference between WR and FIFA on this matter.
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Re: German rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 May 2020, 14:14

The only reason why the home nations are FIFA and WR members it is because they are founding members. It is not possible for other non-independent regions to become members. The only reason there are overseas territories in FIFA, WR or IOC like Puerto Rico, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, etc, it is because they achieved autonomy for sports representation with the consent of the countries they belong. It is not randomic.

I'll repost the list of non-independent countries in the "Last countries without rugby" thread.
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 09 May 2020, 14:56

Saracenswulfpackdef wrote:German 1st league (in rugby union) abandoned for good, no national champion, no promotion, no relegation. Hard times.


Small correction: 1st AND 2nd Bundesliga are abandoned.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby HDHead » Sat, 16 May 2020, 11:43

It seems like Offenbach is pissed off. On the other hand I am wondering why and how they have become so confident (or arrogant?).

https://www.op-online.de/sport/lokalspo ... 65080.html

Does anybody know at which date the ADRT is going to take place? It is very interesting that DRV has suddely intensifed its pr so much.

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Re: German rugby

Postby myth » Sat, 16 May 2020, 21:59

HDHead wrote:Does anybody know at which date the ADRT is going to take place?
tbd. Therefore nobody knows.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Wed, 20 May 2020, 10:42

Chester-Donnelly wrote:For cricket Wales is part of England, which it actually is legally. England is actually short for England and Wales. Scotland and Ireland also have cricket teams. Objectively, this is the most logical way of having Britain and Ireland represented in international sports. 3 teams; Ireland, Scotland and England (England and Wales). But Wales likes to have its own rugby team.


Actually, Wales has not legally been a part of England since 1967, when the relevant section of the Wales and Berwick act was repealed. Since then any reference to "England" refers only to England. So your assertion is incorrect. "England and Wales" exists as a legal concept in some contexts but "England" is not short for England and Wales.

The Cricket situation is an anomally but Scotland has only had a team since 1990s. I do think Wales will end up with its own Cricket team sooner or later - Cricket really isnt that popular here though, and that's probably the real reason we've not got our own team rather than anything else.

A parallel might be the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, which are at least as autonomous as say, Gibraltar, but don't tend to have their own sports teams.

The Faroe Islands are part of Denmark in some sense but are apparently formally "a country within the Kingdom of Denmark" and have all their own teams, so the UK isn't the only place where this happens. I think the fact places like Catalonia and the Basque Country don't have their own recognised sports teams had nothing to do with their level of autonomy but is actually about the Spanish state's attitude towards its own integration.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 20 May 2020, 10:55

Figaro, England is short for England and Wales when it comes to the England cricket team. The ECB is the England and Wales Cricket Board. Legally the jurisdiction is England and Wales. Wales has not had its own legal system since early Tudor times. The Crown Dependencies are separate legal entities. They are not within the jurisdiction of England and Wales or the United Kingdom.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Wed, 20 May 2020, 18:03

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Wales has not had its own legal system since early Tudor times. The Crown Dependencies are separate legal entities. They are not within the jurisdiction of England and Wales or the United Kingdom.


This does not mean the same thing as what you said, which was "legally Wales is a part of England". The European Union is a legal jurisdiction. This doesn't mean that Latvia is legally a part of Poland.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 20 May 2020, 18:16

Figaro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Wales has not had its own legal system since early Tudor times. The Crown Dependencies are separate legal entities. They are not within the jurisdiction of England and Wales or the United Kingdom.


This does not mean the same thing as what you said, which was "legally Wales is a part of England". The European Union is a legal jurisdiction. This doesn't mean that Latvia is legally a part of Poland.


There is no legal jurisdiction of Wales. England and Wales is a legal jurisdiction, as is Scotland, as is Isle of Man, as is Bailiwick of Jersey, as is Bailiwick of Guernsey. Wales is the land where the Welsh live.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 20 May 2020, 18:27


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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:25

In practice the fact England and Wales share a legal system means that the processes around things like the appointment of judges, juries etc. are the same, and most other things in the legal process. This doesn't mean Wales is part of England though. If a law (certainly post 1967) mentions England, it means England, not England and Wales. Wales is not "where the Welsh live", because "the Welsh" don't exist as a distinct legal category separate from British Citizens (neither do any other UK citizens).

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 22 May 2020, 12:57

https://www.therugbyjournal.com/rugby-blog/heidelberg

Really good old article on the Heidelberg situation from "Rugby Journal", a quarterly hipster magazine in UK.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sammo » Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:45

sk 88 wrote:https://www.therugbyjournal.com/rugby-blog/heidelberg

Really good old article on the Heidelberg situation from "Rugby Journal", a quarterly hipster magazine in UK.


Great article, I might subscribe to the print copy

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 22 May 2020, 16:16

This article was published in issue 3 i think, that also had Alun Wyn Jones on the front cover.

I would recommend it, new one is out this week. Mainly English stories this time, I'd guess that's a bit coronavirus forced, but there are articles on Clive Griffiths and Major League Rugby as well as Eddie Jones, Emily Scarratt, Stuart Farmer (statistician), rugby in Essex, Leeds. They also have their photographic competition this issue so lots of good photos.

The prior issue had an article on Chilean rugby, the first issue (now sold out it seems) had a nice feature on Czech rugby. All the advertising was dropped from this issue which worries me, so why I thought I'd try pushing it a bit! I really like it and would hate to see them go bust!

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Re: German rugby

Postby Vultureblack » Sat, 23 May 2020, 08:08

„Bittersweet“ is a telling description by Kobus Potgieter in this article. Memories of victories against Kenya, Uruguay, and Romania 2016/17. And on the club side HRK aka Wild Titans against Timisoara Saracens (2018 together with the likes of Padua or Calvisano.) And there was more to follow with the repechage tournament later 2018.
There are many things however to be put into perspective, while messieurs Botha, Potgieter, Armstrong, Jordaan, and Mohr deserve a lot of empathy.
- On the website it looks this piece was published September, 23 2019. The state of affairs it descibes however is summer 2018 (before the repechage.)
- There is no telling apart or mentioning of the role of renowed national coach Pablo Lemoine. Nor the drama of the player strike for the international against Chile in 2017.
- When it emerged in the dramatic week before that game, that the first choice 25 players would not play, their employer WRA actually owned up to them not being allowed to participate.
- There is no mentioning of quality German players on the payroll of clubs outside the country like Tymenev, Marks, Nostadt, Menzel, or Hilsenbeck. They had come from grassroot level before WRA involvement and had to be flown in for each international. That also applied to German-qualified foreign trained individuals like Tussac, Schosser, Murphy, Ducau, or Oltman not on WRA's payroll (except for special occasions.)
- The team had to kick on after the epic Romania victory in the home game against Spain. But the it simply had a bad day. It is hard to put that down to exhaustion since key performers like Poppmeier, Otto, Els, and van Grumbkow were rested for the road game to Georgia (between the the Romania and the Spain encounter.)
- More importantly, on that crucial day the national sevens programme coughed up one player of the right calibre in Basti Himmer (on top of Wild-employed sevens stalwarts Liebig and Mathurin.) Himmer had not featured for a long time and arguably this „secondment“ meant better support than earlier ones in the shape of Soteras-Merz or Dieckmann.
- It was do-or-die against Spain. And the Romania victory would not have been possible without first choice pro Damien Tussac anchoring the scrum. For other games he was hardly around. And neither was he for that Spain clash. Castres Olympique would not have it, as he was first choice there in a rotation of four top notch front rowers. That was the third force Dr. Wild and Robert Mohr were up against – player release for World Cup qualification games by professional clubs. Tussac was to Germany what Trevor Leota was to Samoa 2003 or Rodrigo Capo Ortega of Castres (sic!) was to Uruguay 2015 (the other two being the German federation under the spell of the sport ministry and eventually European Professional Club Rugby, EPCR.)
- Robert Mohr at one point in the controversy conceded that players were hardly spread around German clubs at all. But rather concentrated with his own Heidelberg club. Giving up on making a competitive domestic club championship a breeding ground. Meaningful exceptions to that preference like Henn, Fairhurst, or Dickinson were perhaps more than matched by releases to the Titans of paid playes like May, Cameron-Dow, or Klewinghaus from their clubs (and numerous other amateurs, a significant regulatory concession by the German federation and other club owners.)
- But the heart of the matter is the EPRC. When did they inform Dr. Wild? Did he know earlier and did not tell his players? This article is the only source which is very explicitly painting the opposite picture. Simon Halliday and the EPRC were quoted as contradicting this. But there is no obvious source as evidence to that either. If it was, the Titans players had not heard about it before that very big game against Timisoara Saracens. And they surely would have. So the public just does not know. (And nobody has unveiled anything on that ever since. And: Was it wise for Dr. Wild to lend Tongan international Siegfried Fisiihoi from Stade Francais to the Titans for those key games? And then cry foul.)
The article tells a gripping narrative. But it is devoid of anything new. Other than that last point: When did Dr. Wild know? (And the possible answer here is a claim only. In favour of Dr. Wild.)

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 23 May 2020, 11:55

The articles come online a lot later than they are published in the magazine. I think this was August 2018 published. The mag is published in Feb, May, August and November.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sammo » Sat, 23 May 2020, 13:51

sk 88 wrote:This article was published in issue 3 i think, that also had Alun Wyn Jones on the front cover.

I would recommend it, new one is out this week. Mainly English stories this time, I'd guess that's a bit coronavirus forced, but there are articles on Clive Griffiths and Major League Rugby as well as Eddie Jones, Emily Scarratt, Stuart Farmer (statistician), rugby in Essex, Leeds. They also have their photographic competition this issue so lots of good photos.

The prior issue had an article on Chilean rugby, the first issue (now sold out it seems) had a nice feature on Czech rugby. All the advertising was dropped from this issue which worries me, so why I thought I'd try pushing it a bit! I really like it and would hate to see them go bust!


Just subscribed and ordered all of the available back copies, looking forward to reading them!

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Re: German rugby

Postby Vultureblack » Mon, 25 May 2020, 18:47

One can't help but think Dr. Wild should have withdrawn Stade Francias. Rather than the Wild Titans from Heidelberg. Stick it up your … EPRC. You may have your pour man's Heineken Cup slot back. We at Stade have won that bugger recently anyhow. How do you like that?

I remember quite a few thought like that at the time. Of course, nobody in France would have understood that. So it was not feasible. And what was built in Germany was jettisoned.

But in hindsight it would have been so much better for Stade Francais as well. Maybe avoiding the annual dog fight against relegation each year by being more focused in that early year.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Tue, 26 May 2020, 10:14

From the Romanian&Russian experience with EPCR, probably they were more than happy to kick the Germans out.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Sat, 30 May 2020, 13:57

You are right Bogdan, besides a few, rare triumphs (and Connacht's odyssy to Siberia) those mighty teams on paper have been whipping boys on the pitch against those Tier1 clubs.
What astonishes me is that none of the Wild players ever said something critically in public. Some definitely were short changed, not receiving a generous severance payment. And even a generous one does not make up for being put in a shitty situation with regard to their livelihood.
A proof of their resolve is that they still gave everything in the Repechage for Germany only a few months later, a last straw.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 12:15

Already a month old, but brilliant interview in the German podcast "Die Eierköpfe" (The egg-shaped-heads - we've got nothing on our mind apart from rugby) with the German 7s national team coach Damian McGrath (former winner of World Series tournaments with Samoa and Canada). Interview is completely in English and well worth the hour spent.

https://www.podcast.de/episode/45100353 ... Damian%21/

Interestingly McGrath is the first high-profile British I hear naming it the Cartel when he talks about the closed shops rugby has (near the end of the episode).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 08:52

Amazing personality, Damian McGrath. The way he comes across there. Decent, grounded, committed. And right, a heart for 2nd and 3rd tier rugby.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Rumpelstilzchen » Sun, 28 Jun 2020, 17:16

Apparently RC Aachen will play in the Netherlands in the future, but I couldn't find any info besides this article: http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/10262/42/ Does anyone know which league their men's team will play in?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 29 Jun 2020, 20:44

If they are admitted I am sure they will have to start from the bottom.

There have been teams from Germany playing in the Dutch competiton before.
So it's not to say there is no precedent but what I am refering to was some 20 years ago.
I recall there was also talk of a German club from Niedersachsen joining the Dutch ranks two years ago,
That however did not happen. I don't know why. If it was the Dutch union who objected, was it just a romour or were they not up to it?

From 1992 to 2003 there were 5 teams from Germany playing in the Dutch competition
They weren't exactly German but they were based in Germany.
In 1992 when the Soviet Union disintegrated and detente set in, all of a sudden there wasn't the need any more for all those Britisch army and
AirForce bases so many of them were dismantled and the competiton they had going amongst themselves fell apart.
That's when the British army bases just across the border in Nordrhein-Westfalen applied to play in the Dutch competition.
Bruggen Bears and Afcent Knights started in 1992, Bruggen Bears 2nds and Laarbruch Lions in 1993 and Rheindahlen Rhino's and Wegberg Boars in 1994.
But they all had to start at the lowest level.
For Bruggen Bears that was the sixth level and a year later Laarbruch Lions started at the fifth level, the bottom division at that time.
Especially the Lions were too strong and with a little help from the Dutch union who recognised their strength and made them skip a division after their first season,
within three years they were in the semi final for promotion to the Ereklasse.
The year after that they were joined by the Bears in the Eerste Klasse (second level) with the Rhino's winning their second consecutive promotion to the Tweede Klasse.

Then, from 1996 they lost most of their players because they got deployed to Yugoslavia and their results dwindled.
After 1997 only the Bears, the Rhino's and the Knights remained and played at the third or fourth level until 2003 when they also folded.

So there is some precedent of foreign teams from that region playing in the Dutch competitions.
Logic would suggest that RC Aachen's first and second team would start in the 3e and 4e klasse respectively (i.e. fourth and fifth level).
Same will go for their under age teams U18, U16 and U14. They too will have to work their way up from the shield competitons (third level).
Maybe for them it will be the hardest, long travels and weaker opposition. I have seen them play on occasion and I was impressed. They still have to travel between 150 and 200 km for a match.
But for German standards maybe that's doable, even for youngsters.

I always find it a bit sad when a team sort of turns its back on the 'motherland'.
I get the reasoning behind it, but still. It doesn't help developing German rugby.

Purely for my part I would welcome the move and I can get where they are coming from.
Being from the region (I play my veteran's rugby mostly at Aachen) I would love to see them rival Maastricht (only 25 km away) in the Eerste Klasse in three years time.
From personal experience, having been involved in senior and youth rugby in Dutch and Belgian clubs from the region I know there has always been a strong cross-border interaction in the Euregio as it's labeled.
It won't be a jump into the unknown for them.

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