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Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 10:50

This is only something twitter idiots care about.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Sat, 29 Aug 2020, 16:24

Some people, mostly men, will never watch women's teams sports because the woman play at less intensity and pace. It's a fact that not going to change. It's not a case of lack of exposure, the slower pace women play at means a large percentage of people won't tune in.


This is not true. Some people won't change indeed, but many can change. It is happening and a perspective that sees a long duration shows that. If future generation are less sexist, more fans wil be formed. Not everybody will turn in, but more people will, which means exposure is crucial in a long term perspective. Men watch a lot of low level crap men's matches because it doesn't matter if a match is not the best possible. What matter is if the match itself has meaning and is enjoyable. If the comparison with the top level is what matters, we wouldn't be watching T2 rugby. Not even most of T1 rugby, that is also crap.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby johnbirch » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 14:27

victorsra wrote:
Some people, mostly men, will never watch women's teams sports because the woman play at less intensity and pace. It's a fact that not going to change. It's not a case of lack of exposure, the slower pace women play at means a large percentage of people won't tune in.
This is not true. Some people won't change indeed, but many can change. It is happening and a perspective that sees a long duration shows that. If future generation are less sexist, more fans wil be formed. Not everybody will turn in, but more people will, which means exposure is crucial in a long term perspective. Men watch a lot of low level crap men's matches because it doesn't matter if a match is not the best possible. What matter is if the match itself has meaning and is enjoyable. If the comparison with the top level is what matters, we wouldn't be watching T2 rugby. Not even most of T1 rugby, that is also crap.

Agree that the standard of play etc. has absolutely nothing to do with male antipathy towards women's rugby, or sport in general. If it the quality of play really was the issue then no-one (or no men) would ever watch sport below the absolute elite peak. But they do - in large numbers.

<Amatuer psychology mode>
My theory is that a lot male sports watching is tribal with male spectators identifying very strongly - and above all vicarously - with the players (often specific players). But they cannot do that with female players, or feel uncomfortable doing so. Their masculinity is threatened, especially if see the players are role models. Should men be able to see women as role models? Yes, obviously. But the trouble is that many men (for all sorts of reasons) cannot do that. They feel activly threatened by women in such positions, and react accordingly. That is why so many sexist responses come over as being extreme, unreasonable and completely nonsensical - because its a fear response.
<Amatuer psychology off>

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 30 Aug 2020, 23:37

I watch a lot of women's sports. The reality is there is a difference in the way both men and women's sports looks. If one sport is faster and more intense then that sport is going to get more people watching. It has little to do with socialisation or lack of exposure, the fact is the slower pace is going to be a turn off to some. I go into womens rugby knowing they are going to be playing a different style of game, and that's fine with me. But some people only want to watch the biggest, strongest and fastest players, and unfortunately they are always going to be men. Not saying it's fair, but you can't force people to watch something that is objectively slower.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 07:08

The skill level could really have a part in the low following of some women sports, if you think that in some (few) other sports, like tennis or winter sports or track&field or maybe also volleyball, the interest created by the women is close to the interest created by the men.
Maybe a role is also played by the contact factor: contact sports like rugby and soccer could be perceived like more masculine, so there's a sort of refractivity on accepting the women version of them. Or maybe it's just a matter of tradition, that will be changed just in long times: cycling, to make an other example, is not a contact sport, there's not a true visible difference between a woman riding a bike and a men (a part strength and speed) but also here in western Europe where cycling is extremely popular the women races are almost ignored. And I can't understand why in Alpine ski the women circuit is almost al popular as the men's one while in cycling there's a big gap.
So all in all I can't have an answer to the dilemma...

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby johnbirch » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 13:33

Canalina wrote:here in western Europe where cycling is extremely popular the women races are almost ignored. And I can't understand why in Alpine ski the women circuit is almost al popular as the men's one while in cycling there's a big gap.
So all in all I can't have an answer to the dilemma...

I would have a guess and suggest that one sport probably promotes the women participants better than the other. Name recogition sells a sport - especially individual sports (though it is pretty important for team sports).

But I must again say that the reaction of many men to women's sport is often so extreme that it is not just a case of them disliking it or finding it less engaging. Comments are so over the top (and the men go so far out of their way to make the comments) that they look to me like classic examples of a fear response. What are these men scared of? I cannot say with any certainty but I my guess is it may be their own emotions/feelings when watching women play, especially when they play a sport which the men concerned see as being masculine, or as measure their own masculinity.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 13:48

I'd say it is also linked with the perception of each sport. Cycling has always been a 'dirty' working class sport ("Les forçats de la route"), even though it's recently changing, while skiing was noble and clean, more adapted to the virginal image attributed to women.

Besides that it must be said that professional women's cycling is still in its infancy and seeing very veteran women able to be extremely competitive doesn't make it a good look.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 13:58

It could be an explanation. Cycling seen as fatiguing, motor sports (there's not even a women sector in motor sports) as dangerous, rugby as fatiguing and dangerous... Maybe the men, who I suppose are the most part of the sport watchers, like women sports just when they don't go too much against the ideal image we have of the women

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 14:26

Canalina wrote:It could be an explanation. Cycling seen as fatiguing, motor sports (there's not even a women sector in motor sports) as dangerous, rugby as fatiguing and dangerous... Maybe the men, who I suppose are the most part of the sport watchers, like women sports just when they don't go too much against the ideal image we have of the women

There is and there have been, but honestly I prefer them to be mixed. It's great that women can race against men, if there are not many it's mostly due to the lack of them at starter level among other things.

Like in football or other sports, what is amazing about women in motorsport is that they used to be more in the 1930s (best women result in Le Mans 24 Hours is from 1932), 1970s (best F1 result) or 1980s (best rally result, best motorcycle grand prix result) than nowadays, when the few reach more resounding wins (Dakar, IndyCar, World Supersport 300...).

P.S: good documentary, but only trailer is available

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 31 Aug 2020, 17:06

The only real answer is time. There is not even a whole generation past since women were basicaly allowed to play most sports. They started like a century after! And it is much less time since families (in Western countries, at least) incentive girls to be interested in sports in the same way boys are. And many still don't. Not to mention the abyss between investments from clubs, federations etc since junior level.

We are still very far from what women can deliver. They won't deliver the same as men in some sports, as there as physical differences, but who cares? It only needs to be good enough. And we are decades away from the real possible peak. It looks like those discussions about T2 rugby that people simply forget to look at contexts and don't give time for things to happen. Womens rugby is in the early infancy.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 01 Sep 2020, 06:15

Women have been part of the olympics for well over 100 years now, so it's not really true that womens sport hasn't had prominence. The issue is less individual sports but teams sports. The problem is the approach to women's teams sports has to be different, and decisions are being made that are an attempt to accelerate parity with their male counterparts, which isn't a reasonable way to approach things. I look at things like FIFA's ridiculous expansion of their Women's World Cup to 32 teams. They had, what, two tournaments at 24 teams? There weren't enough quality teams to fill 24 places and now there are going to be an even bigger amount of mismatches at 32. It was bad enough they did it with the mens, but it risks undermining the integrity of the women's tournament even more because there are far fewer women who play professionally than there are men. If women's teams sports are to be successful then they have to be treated differently, and on top of that, we have to stop with this desire to get some type of 50-50 split between men and women, because all it will do is affect both sexes. We already started to see that with the Sevens competitions how they've had to compromise the mens draw to accomodate the women's schedule, and no-one liked it. If we come at the approach that women's rugby will always be different, then we can build from those foundations. If we keep telling ourselves things like 'people just need to be exposed to it', then the women's game never will reach it's full potential. Women's rugby shouldn't be seen as the same as mens rugby because that's a battle the girls will never win, so you have to embrace how women play the game differently and find the audience who will watch it. When you know who your audience is, then you market to it. The increases revenue, salaries, and all of a sudden more girls are playing professionally. More professionals, the higher the standard of play is, the higher the value women's rugby has.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 01 Sep 2020, 17:13

They are part of the Olympics for a hundred year in very few sports and for decades with much less preparation or incentive. Women team sports are far away from their real potencial and only time will show what is the limit. There is a lot of men's hysteria about women's sports based on nothing (or prejudice).

Only investment, based on sciences (physical and social), and time will show anything. It is needed some generations to have real results. You won't find proof of anything in one generation under the same conditions. Athletes and public won't be revolutionized in a short period. Some changes are only seen when people stop, die, born and grow. But people's expectation are based on very short time. This is true for both, T2 rugby and women's rugby.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Thu, 03 Sep 2020, 07:06

Germany will restart from RE Trophy, a tournament which will involve other three teams. So apparently Rugby Europe has already made plans and pools for the new season, even if they feel still not ready to publish them.
The German team is also planning a possible test match before the end of the year

"We have registered our 15-man national teams for women, men and the male U18 and U20 national teams with Rugby Europe for the coming season. For women, the Rugby Europe Trophy is showing a new record participation with four new teams - one of them is ours.
Both the women's and men's national teams will this year - at least that's how it is planned - to contest another course and possibly even a test match. In order to be best prepared for the international competitions in spring 2021. It is planned to hold the preparations at the federal base in Heidelberg. Not to bundle everything in Heidelberg, but to give all teams access to the top-class facilities".

https://www.s50static.com/cms/uploads/f ... 4e9fe_.pdf

Hypothesis for women RE 2021
Championship: Spain, Russia, Netherlands, Czech Rep. (winner of the Trophy 2020)
Trophy: Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Thu, 03 Sep 2020, 09:44

Reading better the above google translation of the german communicate, they talk about a "record participation of four new teams, and one of them is our one" ("Bei den Frauen zeichnet sich in der Rugby Europe Trophy eine neue Rekordbeteiligung mit vier neuen Mannschaften ab - eine davon ist die unsrige"). If this was true, we could hypothesize a scenario like this:

Championship (3 participants): Spain, Russia, Netherlands
Trophy (8): Czech Republic, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland plus other three nations (Belgium? Portugal? Other?)

Anyway it's very hard to imagine such an improvement of participant nations' number right during a season so troubled like this

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 23:39

Armchair Fan wrote:There have been very strong rumours in Spain about a 6N+2 tournament, so don't discard it. But as always it must be accepted by 6N. I believe last two years of England domination have helped...

Well, Spanish head coach was interviewed today and says that despite a women's Nations Championship still being planned the rumoured 6N+2 tournament has been canned (from minute 15):
https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v= ... _permalink

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 07:05

May you summarize just a little more what he said? Despite it's in spanish I haven't caught all the words

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 10:00

"Once 2021 RWC is over, World Rugby has already planned a different global schedule where there will be a XVs world league and Sevens World Series (...). Players will have to choose between being XVs players or 7s players" (from 8:50)

"What World Rugby tells us is that they are driving towards a 16-team RWC. In order to have 16, as they didn't take care of women's XV until very recently, and just now we start to have development plans, the new world league I told you about... Well, it's true that from an emerging country POV, maybe even Spain but we have a long story of XVs, but for example Russia just until now thought the easiest way was to promote projects driven towards the Olympics, it fitted easily, it was less expesive, it got media exposure, etc. So many countries were fully focused on the Olympics. That meant women's XV elite was composed of 12-14 teams at most. South Africa regressed and teams from other regions didn't emerge. What have they done now? They have done a direct spot to third Oceania team with a development plan for Fiji, for example. They try to find additional teams, so far against the interests of European teams because we lost another spot, but this is all about finding another Asian team, doing a development work in South America, they just had a first South American tournament with a game between Brazil and Colombia and they want to get Argentina involved... It's all about reaching that situation enabling a 16-team RWC, but in the meantime it makes life quite hard for all European teams". (from 12:15)

"Like always, it's all up to the British (Home Unions). We were really hopeful because the world league would have a 'regional format', a European zone in our case, and would regulate more or less current international test windows, both in spring and autumn. In the European zone, initially and promoted by the English, that understood that Spain needed to be there, we were sent a system with promotion-relegation model or even an 8 Nations with Spain and another European team, either Russia or Netherlands... but they have crushed it. So it's once again the same, we must qualify for the World League directly from Rugby Europe Women's Championship as our regional tournament. They favor such a format to have Northern Hemisphere v Southern Hemisphere games but they reject that such fixtures are decided in the 6 Nations. We could play USA but not England, so it's the same. In the end the British don't want to lose control" (from 15:00)

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 10:38

Very interesting, thanks

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Sat, 05 Sep 2020, 19:08

It seems clear the 6Ns want the expansion to 16 teams.

A suggestion of a scenario is to have:

7 Europe
3 Oceania
2 Americas
1 Africa
1 Asia
2 Repechage

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Mon, 07 Sep 2020, 03:49

It appears by now almost sure that women will return to play a test match on October 24; that day there are three games fixed (Sco-Fra, Ire-Ita, Spa-Rus) and we have good chances that at least one of them will go on. The last game played was Guatemala v El Salvador on March 8 (and three games were played on March 7: Eng-Wal, Ned-Rus, Bra-Col), that makes a hiatus of seven months and sixteen days. It would be the third largest pause between two test matches in the women rugby history: just between the first ever test match and the second one (one year minus one week) and between the second test and the third (again one year minus one week) there has been a wider time distance

[1] 1982-06-13 Netherlands 0–4 France Utrecht

[2] 1983-06-05 France 10–0 Netherlands La Teste

[3] 1984-05-27 Netherlands 0–3 France Hilversum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... st_matches

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 13:46

This saturday the Swiss national championship starts and it's surprising to see that it's composed by eight teams.
Considering that Switzerland has 1/7 of the Italy's population (last season the Italian championship was composed by 28 teams), that's surely a good amount of teams

https://fsr.sportlomo.com/league/152094/

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 17:36

Interview (in Portuguese) with Brazilian flanker Larissa Lima, Counties Manukau (NZ's Farah Palmer Cup) player: http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticia ... eozelandes

Incredible that she never played for Brazil. She could have been the key player in Brazil's XV against Colombia.... she's 26 years old, there is time to see her with the Yaras.

Larissa Lima was born in Brazil and raised in Portugal. She trained with the Portuguese national team (no caps!) but also played briefly in Brazil for Goianos Rugby Clube (only 1 tournament in the Brazilian 7s championship). In Portugal she played for Agrária, Técnico and Sporting (winning the Iberian Cup). She moved to NZ in 2016 with her boyfriend, former Hurricanes player. She played as number 7 in Round 1 win over North Harbour:

Now Larissa Lima is also looking at Rugby League. She wants to play for Brazil in the 2021 Rugby League World Cup.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Thu, 17 Sep 2020, 08:50

Women known autumnal fixtures, on the right. NZ will be surpassed in the ranking by England, if the red roses won all their three games

Image

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sun, 20 Sep 2020, 20:22

An other table... the Italy's all time individual records: points, tries, caps. In bold the still playing athletes (to say the truth also Schiavon is maybe still playing, in Japan, but she said goodbye to the national team at the end of the RWC 2017). In the last column the italian next fixtures

Image

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 26 Sep 2020, 21:55

Bárbara Pichot in this interview says Argentina was expected to start playing women's XV nationally in 2020 and current deadline has been pushed forward to 2021:
https://www.ivoox.com/podcast-n-14-barb ... 472_1.html

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