Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

The future of Italian Rugby

User avatar
Posts: 374
Joined: Mon, 21 Sep 2015, 15:38
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Bolaroid » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 10:27

Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.

Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 10:52

What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 11:50

Bolaroid wrote:
Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.


It wouldn't be prohibitive to Georgia given they are bankrolled by Ivanishvili, but of course, the fact they would never see a financial return on the investment may itself be prohibitive, though if it ultimately leads to Georgia having a side in the QFs of an RWC, then that would of course, outweigh any financial losses.

There's a lot of money in Russia too, but they have their own professional structure. I agree it would be too much for the likes of Spain or Portugal.

In my view, this is definitely where the Pro 16 should be looking to expand - Georgia, Russia, Spain, Portugal - the Jaguares idea just isn't feasible without the side having fixtures in Argentina, which obviously can't happen.

In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.

Personally, I prefer the first option, with the addition of the best Zebre players a stronger Treviso could perform in a similar fashion to the Jaguares in Super Rugby whilst if Georgia are given the chance in any format, I firmly believe they will be competitive very quickly.

User avatar
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 13:11

Peroni Top10, the few left weekends. Petrarca (63) will very probably finish in first position and Rovigo (52) will be likely second, while the third place is still uncertain between Valorugby (50) and Calvisano (46). So according to my forecast the first leg semifinals will be in Reggio Emila and Calvisano and the second leg in Padova and Rovigo. The final game will be at home of the finalist team better placed in the regular season

XVI round – April 10
Valorugby v Fiamme Oro
Rovigo v Lyons
Lazio v Calvisano
Mogliano v Petrarca
Viadana v Colorno

XVII round – April 17
Lyons v Valorugby
Colorno v Rovigo
Petrarca v Calvisano
Viadana v Lazio
Fiamme Oro v Mogliano

XVIII round – April 24
Valorugby v Petrarca
Rovigo v Fiamme Oro
Calvisano v Lyons
Lazio v Colorno
Mogliano v Viadana

Recovers – May 1
Fiamme Oro v Colorno
Calvisano v Valorugby

To be recovered (when?)
Petrarca v Colorno

Semifinals: May 8, 15 (home&away)
4 v 1
3 v 2

Final: May 29

Online
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Apr 2021, 16:37

If Petrarca's position in the league is unchangeable, Petrarca vs Colorno might be cancelled I guess, just like what happened with Edinburgh vs Benetton in PRO14.

Posts: 805
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Raven » Tue, 06 Apr 2021, 13:24

ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.

User avatar
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 17:14

Thirdultimate round of the Peroni Top10, this saturday. All games live on youtube, as always.
Viadana v Colorno (they are two little towns, one on the side and one on the other side of the big river Po) will be refereed by Clara Munarini. It's the first time ever that a woman wears the role of main referee in the italian national championship.

Kick-offs in CET

14.30 Rovigo v Lyons
15.00 Lazio v Calvisano
16.00 Mogliano v Petrarca
16.00 Valorugby v Fiamme Oro
16.00 Viadana v Colorno

Still no news about Ramiro Finco, it must have been an heavy cerebral problem

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 23:23

Raven wrote:
ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.


In an ideal world where you provide an equitable pathway for all and rugby is a meritocracy - we can but dream.

Italy have two franchises but don't have the talent to support two competitive teams at that level - you can cry all you want about how they deserve X and Y but the results speak for themselves.

Rugby needs to open up properly and has to move fast, the success of Georgia needs to be embraced and I think the Pro 14/16 is a natural fit - or where do you suggest a nascent Georgian professional rugby franchise go? The Didi 10 is only semi-pro so it's not clear who you are advocating entering the Challenge Cup, the composite teams like the Bucharest Wolves etc. also don't work so you can't be championing a similar model for Georgia.

As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

In an ideal world, the Italian teams would never have joined the Pro 14 at all, and worked hard at building their own league. I do agree that the whole Pro league is an abomination - it only makes sense as a Celtic League with the 10 Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams. By joining the Pro 14/16 the Italians have poured good money after bad and have seen no improvement in performance levels either in the Pro 14 or their National Team.

Posts: 96
Joined: Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 04:38
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Rebus » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 03:25

Looks like this is an argument which wont go away quickly.

https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2021 ... 5mn-laxTuc

Although this time , there was an interesting analogy drawn against the improvement by Portugal. And the question is , ignoring the finances and just focussing on the rugby , would Italian rugby improve by being relegated and allowing the younger , inexperienced players play in the REC and win matches and develop that way. Earn their way back into the 6 Nations and start winning games again in the 6N

Online
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 16:40

Rebus wrote:Looks like this is an argument which wont go away quickly.

https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2021 ... 5mn-laxTuc

Although this time , there was an interesting analogy drawn against the improvement by Portugal. And the question is , ignoring the finances and just focussing on the rugby , would Italian rugby improve by being relegated and allowing the younger , inexperienced players play in the REC and win matches and develop that way. Earn their way back into the 6 Nations and start winning games again in the 6N


This article can't be serious. The guy compares Georgia wins in a row in the REC with Italy's defeats against T1s. This is not a reasonable comparison. And he talks about money being the problem, when it is not exactly "money". It is ownership. Then, he starts a naive discussion about how to compensate Italy.

He could have dedicated his analysis to how the 6N Ltd should create its own 2nd division (to make a promotion-relegation only natural) or about it becoming 7N or 8N. It would have been a much better discussion.

Posts: 805
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Raven » Thu, 08 Apr 2021, 18:39

ScottishPuma wrote:
Spoiler:
Raven wrote:
ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.


In an "ideal world" for who? In an ideal world Bennetton and Zebre should still keep their place in a professional set up, Georgian and Russian (perhaps even a Romanian and 1 of a triple play off between GER/BEL/NED) professional teams should take part of the Challenge Cup instead of the 12th or 14th team of the Premiership, PRO14 & Top 14...

In an "ideal world", South African teams shouldn't have turned to Europe... I personally think it's an abomination, clearly part of the business and the trend of creating international "leagues". We'll see how does it work out in terms of following and TV interest, SR AUS and SR AO have better attendances now that they play between each other.

On the other hand, this fantasy of having the Jaguares merging with a FIR side was a "funny thought" and now it was expanded wildly and everybody is trying to make it a tangible reality. It's not gonna happen! I can't see how it would benefit the UAR in the long run, nor do I believe that they think there will be local backing of the side even in spite of playing in Spain or wherever the most Argentine colony lies in Europe. It may work a season, 2, but eventually, fans, sponsors and even the players will want to have a proper HOME game with their crowd. That's what a franchise in Super Rugby created for them and that's what made it different to Pampas XV or Jaguares XV in the Currie Cup.

Italy needs to keep their 2 teams if they intend to keep up with the European big 5 (scroll a few pages back and I think at one point we even talked about how good would it be for them to have a 3rd franchise too, if it wasn't on this thread it was on another one but I recall that subject) Notwithstanding, I believe they also need their quality players playing in better leagues too, but that's my opinion. Jaguares had 1 extremely good season in Super Rugby, that wasn't reflected on the National Team. They also had some crappy ones, understandable as it was something new, but the National team also paid the price for their "losing streak". What I'm saying is, having the whole national team playing in 1 or even 2 teams in one league is not the perfect solution.

amz wrote:What I do not understand with Italian rugby is why they do not hire better coaching teams. They have enough money to sign top coaches as Japan did with Eddie Jones and Joseph. Consequently they can hire top coaches in their specialities, U20, U18 which would help develop clubs training as well.


THIS is also a big thing. Although I think O'Shea wasn't a bad choice and was also unable to change things.

In an ideal world where you provide an equitable pathway for all and rugby is a meritocracy - we can but dream.

Italy have two franchises but don't have the talent to support two competitive teams at that level - you can cry all you want about how they deserve X and Y but the results speak for themselves.


Nah, I'm certainly not crying, but I am completely against the thought of these decisions being of one OR the other. We all agree that we want more competitive teams, but that doesn't have to come to the expense of other nations that at one point were doing well enough to gain consideration.

ScottishPuma wrote:Rugby needs to open up properly and has to move fast, the success of Georgia needs to be embraced and I think the Pro 14/16 is a natural fit - or where do you suggest a nascent Georgian professional rugby franchise go? The Didi 10 is only semi-pro so it's not clear who you are advocating entering the Challenge Cup, the composite teams like the Bucharest Wolves etc. also don't work so you can't be championing a similar model for Georgia.


I quoted your "ideal world" line cause you just brought up an opinion, not considering how it may affect the Italian side of things, meaning it is not an "ideal world" for everybody. Of course we have to embrace Georgia's success -that has dropped a bit now if you ask me, but that's another story- but I don't think the solution is as snappy as replacing an Italian franchise with an Argentine merger cause they were left with no ELITE competition, or a Georgian side "just because" they top the REC on consecutive occasions. Both Bennetton and Zebre may not do great at the PRO14 but have had some good runs for their money in European Cup games.
As I said before, maybe I didn't stress it enough, it would be best if the European Cups had more T2 involvement, not just keep adding teams to the initial Celtic League to transform it eventually into a PRO18. If Russia keep investing in their league, it may take some time, but eventually they might add some flair to a cup competition, there's certainly something brewing over there with their intention to host a RWC, their recent 2nd participation in the world stage, and the mild incipient success of their HPCs. Romania and Georgia have semi pro leagues as you point out, but a domestic "franchise" model like the one Jaguares had in Super Rugby may be their way to start although I am certainly not convinced that it's the best solution in the long run -the Bucaresti Wolves and Olympics in Spain are examples of that. We can enter a debate about whether the timing for those projects may have been to soon, considering Rugby is a lot more professional now...

Over a beer, with pen and paper we can probably draw a million possibilities, I personally think that what would really help would be to have a 3rd European Cup but not as 'demeaning' like the Continental Shield was or the one Russia is proposing. It's got to be something more relevant and with a bit of more following. Say as an example, first 5 of the 3 big leagues go to the Champions Cup, 6th to 10/11th go the Challenge Cup and the rest (2 from Prem, 3 from Top14 and 3 from PRO14) play with other European teams, ie: 2 Russian, 1 Georgian, 1 Romanian, 1 BE/NED, 1 POR/SPA (I was REALLY looking forward to see Heidelberg in Europe for instance... :( ) Teams winning the 2nd or 3rd Cup would enable the team to climb the ladder for the following season.
Another example would be to work out a sort of play off rounds before the group stages, with the involvement of T2 teams, again, the idea is not to replace anybody but to add more teams in European Competitions, not Leagues.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't just scrap any Italian team, I'd try to find a way to make other teams reach AT LEAST their standard.

ScottishPuma wrote:As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

Jaguares did show progression, indeed, but the National Team didn't reflect that progression.

ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world, the Italian teams would never have joined the Pro 14 at all, and worked hard at building their own league. I do agree that the whole Pro league is an abomination - it only makes sense as a Celtic League with the 10 Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams. By joining the Pro 14/16 the Italians have poured good money after bad and have seen no improvement in performance levels either in the Pro 14 or their National Team.

Maybe you are right, obviously there's more reasons behind their addition to the Celtic League besides the competitiveness of their teams. However it's done now and there should be a way to allow more teams to compete without beheading Italy and leave them with nothing.

Posts: 107
Joined: Sun, 05 Feb 2017, 15:38
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 16:17

In an ideal world, the Celtic League would join with the English Premiership to make a British & Irish League.

In an ideal world the 2 Italian teams would join the Top14 and Pro D2 and maybe a team from Spain to create a Continental league.

In an ideal world the SA teams would run the Currie Cup like SRAu and SRAo with a champions league style combined with Top league in Japan

User avatar
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 18:17

First, partially positive notes about Ramiro Finco's rehabilitation

Medical bulletin
Our player and friend Ramiro Finco hospitalized at the Gemelli Polyclinic in Rome since March 14, continues the path of improvement with small signs every day.
The mobility of the right side gives excellent reactions, Rama follows orders but still does not react consistently to external stimuli.
The picture is slowly improving therefore he has been transferred from the intensive care unit to the neurosurgery department of the Gemelli.
His parents are always by his side.
A big thank you from all of us goes to the Gemelli Medical staff who are treating him.
Come on Rama, we are all with you

https://www.facebook.com/rugbyviadana19 ... 0257939532

Tomorrow's Top10 live links
14.30 Rovigo-Lyons www.youtube.com/watch?v=kss64Kp1d7g
15.00 Lazio-Calvisano www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rnes8F6aM
16.00 Valorugby-Fiamme Oro www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2QliOTHAUQ
16.00 Viadana-Lyons www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA7U1or7moc
16.00 Mogliano-Petrarca www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q96s0mT9ayw

Posts: 500
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sat, 10 Apr 2021, 00:56

ScottishPuma wrote:
Bolaroid wrote:
Rebus wrote:Appreciate the focus is on the Jaguares and UAR buying the licence from the FIR , but equally the same could be achieved from any ambitious rugby union. Georgia , Russia or Spain could equally buy the licence and parachute a faux national team into the Pro league

True, but if the cost is £10m then it seems prohibitive.


It wouldn't be prohibitive to Georgia given they are bankrolled by Ivanishvili, but of course, the fact they would never see a financial return on the investment may itself be prohibitive, though if it ultimately leads to Georgia having a side in the QFs of an RWC, then that would of course, outweigh any financial losses.

There's a lot of money in Russia too, but they have their own professional structure. I agree it would be too much for the likes of Spain or Portugal.

In my view, this is definitely where the Pro 16 should be looking to expand - Georgia, Russia, Spain, Portugal - the Jaguares idea just isn't feasible without the side having fixtures in Argentina, which obviously can't happen.

In an ideal world, Georgia could take over the Zebre franchise and continue as Pro 16 OR expand to a Pro 18, with the addition of the Cheetahs.

Personally, I prefer the first option, with the addition of the best Zebre players a stronger Treviso could perform in a similar fashion to the Jaguares in Super Rugby whilst if Georgia are given the chance in any format, I firmly believe they will be competitive very quickly.


I'm fairly unconvinced that a few sides getting whipped in the ProWhatever is a better option than growing the domestic Championship. Certainly in Russia there is enough political power to go it alone, given the strength of top tier Iberian sides, I'd argue the same for them. The only nations I can see I making sense for are Germany (if Mr Peter Wild agrees to fund £5m+/yr for a decade) and Poland/Romania if a billionaire comes forward.

Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 13:22
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ScottishPuma » Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 12:28

Nah, I'm certainly not crying, but I am completely against the thought of these decisions being of one OR the other. We all agree that we want more competitive teams, but that doesn't have to come to the expense of other nations that at one point were doing well enough to gain consideration.


I definitely agree, but surely at some point we need to see improvement from the two Italian teams? And if not, then what, allow the situation to continue interminably? I think one Italian franchise would not necessarily be a step backwards, especially if that franchise was much more competitive in a similar vein to the Jaguares in Super Rugby. Also, it could strengthen their domestic league which is arguably where they should have focussed their attention before they entered the Pro Whatever. If rugby is going to grow in popularity in Italy, then the public needs to see some victories and fast - one highly competitive franchise performing well and reaching knockout phases of tournaments is better than two teams who consistently fail to achieve. Then if Italy is producing a surplus of high quality players, too many for the one franchise, then would be the time to think about bringing in a second.

Of course we have to embrace Georgia's success -that has dropped a bit now if you ask me, but that's another story- but I don't think the solution is as snappy as replacing an Italian franchise with an Argentine merger cause they were left with no ELITE competition, or a Georgian side "just because" they top the REC on consecutive occasions. Both Bennetton and Zebre may not do great at the PRO14 but have had some good runs for their money in European Cup games.

Not sure I agree here, I think Georgia would have turned out exactly the same results in Italy's pool at the RWC whilst I think were the roles reversed and Italy in Georgia's group they would also have finished 4th thus forcing them to qualify (which would have been fantastic as we'd finally get to see Italy play against the other European sides to see what their respective levels are). In short, I don't think Georgia have regressed, just going through a transitional period with changeover of players and coaching staff - take a look at the success of their U-20s, they are building very nicely towards 2023.

As I said before, maybe I didn't stress it enough, it would be best if the European Cups had more T2 involvement, not just keep adding teams to the initial Celtic League to transform it eventually into a PRO18. If Russia keep investing in their league, it may take some time, but eventually they might add some flair to a cup competition, there's certainly something brewing over there with their intention to host a RWC, their recent 2nd participation in the world stage, and the mild incipient success of their HPCs. Romania and Georgia have semi pro leagues as you point out, but a domestic "franchise" model like the one Jaguares had in Super Rugby may be their way to start although I am certainly not convinced that it's the best solution in the long run -the Bucaresti Wolves and Olympics in Spain are examples of that. We can enter a debate about whether the timing for those projects may have been to soon, considering Rugby is a lot more professional now...


Mostly agree, but given Italy has chosen this route ahead of what was a much stronger domestic league than any of the others, it really means that presently it is also the best, and certainly the quickest, route for nations like Georgia, Spain or Portugal. I think Russia is the only nation with enough money in the domestic league to go it alone.

Over a beer, with pen and paper we can probably draw a million possibilities, I personally think that what would really help would be to have a 3rd European Cup but not as 'demeaning' like the Continental Shield was or the one Russia is proposing. It's got to be something more relevant and with a bit of more following. Say as an example, first 5 of the 3 big leagues go to the Champions Cup, 6th to 10/11th go the Challenge Cup and the rest (2 from Prem, 3 from Top14 and 3 from PRO14) play with other European teams, ie: 2 Russian, 1 Georgian, 1 Romanian, 1 BE/NED, 1 POR/SPA (I was REALLY looking forward to see Heidelberg in Europe for instance... :( ) Teams winning the 2nd or 3rd Cup would enable the team to climb the ladder for the following season.
Another example would be to work out a sort of play off rounds before the group stages, with the involvement of T2 teams, again, the idea is not to replace anybody but to add more teams in European Competitions, not Leagues.


Plenty of different possibilities yes, and you weren't the only one disappointed not to see Heidelberg in Europe. But it just seems that the EPCR have no desire to expand the game outwith the 6N - the treatment of the respective teams from Romania, Russia, Spain and Germany have been discussed a lot on here and has been worse than appalling. But I would like to see an expanded Challenge Cup with the champions from Russia, Georgia, Romania, Spain and perhaps Portugal or Germany involved in addition to the Eccellenza Champions - I think Rugby Europe and the EPCR need to form closer ties to ensure something along the lines of one our suggestions happen.

ScottishPuma wrote:As for the Jaguares, they showed clear progression from season to season in each of the four seasons they spent in Super Rugby, this is something Italian teams have failed to do.

Jaguares did show progression, indeed, but the National Team didn't reflect that progression.


Their were other factors at play, namely Ledesma's refusal to pick non-Jaguares - note what happened when he abandoned that policy, their most successful RC campaign ever and a maiden victory against the ABs. Also note, that they were within an incorrect refereeing decision against France of making the QFs in Japan, despite Ledesma's poor selection policy.

Posts: 625
Joined: Sat, 31 May 2014, 21:12
National Flag:
FranceFrance

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 08:28

There is a debate page in the last Midi Olympique about Italy place in the 6 Nations. Basically, it's well say that Italy is a stakeholder of 6 Nations, so nothing will happen. Most interesting is the comment of few people about current Italy state, especially the one of Pierre Berbizier :
"The analysis is that Italy doesn't have anymore the 6 Nations level. The question to replace it is logical. [...] Remember that a few years ago, Italy was competitive. Why did it regress ? I believe there has been prejudiciable political choices, notably the concentration of the best players in the two Pro14 franchises. The italian federation neglected its domestic championship whereas formation is good. Now youths don't have prospects because the two franchises have too many outsider players. And the domestic championship barely has the Fédérale 1 level. The federation should have developped a better domestic championship instead of concentrating its players in two teams.
Geographically, it doesn't incite kids living far from these franchises to come to rugby. Italia is paying the price of a political choice. Before, the players played in France : Parisse, Lo Cicero, Festuccia, Troncon, brothers Bergamasco, Canale, Castrogiovanni, Dellape and so many. Now, the bests have deserted the Top 14 because they doesn't have the level for it."

The newspaper writes too that Guy Novès was approached to take the lead of Squadra Azzura, but he declined.

User avatar
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 10:05

The dilemma about maintaining our participation in Pro14 is hot in these months in the little world of italian rugby.
Personally, I can't say which is the way that should be taken and I suppose nobody knows with certainty; the feeling is that the general orientation is slowly bending toward an abandon of the Pro14 and a consequent strenghtening of the national championship (eventually becoming a Super6 or Super8 without relegations). Not because of certainties but because everyone thinks "the situation since 10 years ago is not improving, or even it is worsening; we must change something...". And the most immediate possible big changement appears to be the abandon of the Pro14, because Benetton and Zebre need a lot of money but never attracted proportional enthusiasm and never produced evident benefical effects on the national team.
The problem is that the abandon of the Pro14 is not a new way but the return to an old one, id est the return to a national championship as top of our movement. And the celtic adventure was chosen also beacuse the national championship had lost part of its already not enormous appeal.
So, to me, quitting the Pro14 and returning to focus on the national championship would be a sort of jump in the dark

Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 12:32

The article is quite unfair, claiming that Italy's only path has been to call rejects from other nations. I'd say there has been a big effort to increase the Italianness of the team...

Online
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 13:47

People say this like if Italy had more foreign-born players than Scotland or Ireland. People forget Herring and Stander are South Africans, Gibson-Park, Aki and Lowe are kiwis, because you can hide their names in the squad, they look Irish. Italy can't hide Ioane, Brex, Steyn and Meyer. Add Varney, Braley, and the number is definitly not that outrageous, pretty standart compared to fellow 6 Nations....

Posts: 625
Joined: Sat, 31 May 2014, 21:12
National Flag:
FranceFrance

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 14:06

Armchair Fan wrote:The article is quite unfair, claiming that Italy's only path has been to call rejects from other nations. I'd say there has been a big effort to increase the Italianness of the team...

Yes, they forgot a bit quickly that Italy hugely naturalized argentinians in the past. But as we talked here a few times ago, english surnames in a latin team doesn't sound good for viewers.

@Canalina : for me that was a mistake to leave the national championship and go to celtic league. I mean, the league is good for Ireland, with meaning teams, with a strong historical brand. It's correct for Scotland with the two main cities, even if the clubs doesn't look that much popular towards the popularity of rugby for Scotland. And for Wales ... mitigated, it doesn't really match the History of welsh rugby. But, all in all ... the league was coherent for them.
For Italy ... you went there with two medium cized cities. That doesn't attract public imaginary. You play opponents without link with you. And not even their best team, because there is a lot of turnover. You go against your culture, which (as for France), club culture. And you killed the national championship.
Why do we have here a new boost in our national team ? Because there has been a lot of effort put into formation through the clubs. The pro clubs invest a lot of money in youth formation, and that brings to the federation great players (whereas the federation is trying to grow the sport in new places, so more players available for teams). In Italy, why would someone invest in formation outside of federation ? The championship is now secondary. The franchises are federation team, so that's up to the federation to do that.

I know that going back to the national championship only good look a bit risky. But that's the right move if you want to move forward. There's no way to grow in Celtic League for you anymore. Some things might have been learned ... but some things are now missing. Give a go for your best players to go abroad, make them learn something new. Nationally, try to build around the best 8 teams. (Zebre or whatever in Parma, Treviso, Padova, Reggio Emilia, Piacenza, Rovigo are good basis with coherent mid sized cities + Viadana and Calvisano, small cities with great quality & history in your rugby). Remobilize the italian rugby community around something common, bring back the club finale in a big stadium, produce a good TV product all year long (all 8 clubs have a good stadium, that should be easily feasible). Sure that's a lot of work, and maybe everyone was a bit lazy ten years ago to do that. But that's the only way, Celtic way proved to be not very interesting. And all the amount of money spend in two franchises bringing not that much could be turned into something new, as more junior regional/local academies, financial help to develop clubs in places there aren't, media communication around Top 8, bigger and stronger staff for all national teams, ...

Posts: 805
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Raven » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 14:20

I am between worlds on this new rumour of both Italian sides leaving the Pro14. On one side, if they stay, it is undoubtedly a bigger exposure for their players on the pitch and both of their franchises within the Home Nation market, on the other hand, if they leave they'd be re-building their local rugby and focus internally with a wider selection base.

Could be a good thing, back in the 80s/90s Italian clubs had gone pro and boosted their teams with great players. Do they have the budget to do the same now in order to pick up the level of their league? I am also assuming that if they both bail on the Pro14, Benetton will continue, but Zebre will probably disband all together as it is a FIR side and there won't be a "need" for that.

Also, this
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/int ... akeholders

South Africa being cast out of the Rainbow Cup?, no Italians? is it 2009 again?

Online
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 12 Apr 2021, 16:58

As I understand Italy is since 2019 or 2020 (not sure when) a "Celtic Rugby DAC" (PRO14) stakeholder https://www.r1823.it/2020/05/22/affari- ... nnunciati/
So, how much (%) has Italy of the organization? They would be able to sell their %? Would that worth?

Posts: 75
Joined: Sat, 04 Mar 2017, 11:26
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Ainsthrilln » Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 19:33

victorsra wrote:
And, I already checked, those Spanish cities have each one like 5-10k Argentines (and not all of them like rugby), which is definitely not enough for anything.


No, there are a lot more in Madrid and Barcelona.

Take into consideration that Spanish statistics only book as Argentinians those who only have an Argentinian passport.

Those with Spanish passports are considered Spanish, and those with Italian passports are considered Italians (there around 260.000 Italians registered in Spain, and I guess at least half of them from Argentina).

There are at least 300.000 Argentinians in Spain. Maybe Madrid and Barcelona over 25-30.000 each.

The problem is that maybe a 10% of them are interested in rugby, maybe a 20% tops. Most of them don't come from the environments where rugby is popular in Argentina (but those who do tend to concentrate in Madrid, Barcelona and Málaga/Marbella).

In any case, I don't think that pro rugby is doable in Spain unless Real Madrid or FC Barcelona wish to throw away 10 million euros per year to fund a rugby team. And in the current conditions it won't happen.

I don't see the Jaguares being profitable in Spain. Spain NT matches rarely have more than 8-10.000 spectators, and with ticket prices really low.

Ok, you can attract 2.000 Argentinians, at most, who are interested to go to the matches regularly and have the money, in Madrid, Barcelona. Who are the other ticket-payers? Maybe add another couple of thousands of Spanish fans. British fans traveling with their teams? It's a nice bonus, but not a base. British residing in Spain? Then go to Marbella and forget about most of the Argentinian, but they are not so many within a 50 km radious (they spread thorugh the coast in foreign "colonies"), and may not be appealed by a full Argentinian team...

I don't any clear good option.

ScottishPuma wrote:In an ideal world where you provide an equitable pathway for all and rugby is a meritocracy - we can but dream.

Italy have two franchises but don't have the talent to support two competitive teams at that level - you can cry all you want about how they deserve X and Y but the results speak for themselves.


Then Scotland can give up one of their spots in favour of Georgia.

They are not producing more local talent than the Italians, just importing more and better South African and English players.

Rebus wrote:Looks like this is an argument which wont go away quickly.

https://lastwordonsports.com/rugby/2021 ... 5mn-laxTuc

Although this time , there was an interesting analogy drawn against the improvement by Portugal. And the question is , ignoring the finances and just focussing on the rugby , would Italian rugby improve by being relegated and allowing the younger , inexperienced players play in the REC and win matches and develop that way. Earn their way back into the 6 Nations and start winning games again in the 6N


They are already playing the 6N with a full squad of younger, inexperienced players.

If they are expelled, they will never come back.

And let's be realistic, Georgia will never be accepted in the 6 Nations. Business-wise it would be a suicide.

It's 6 Nations with Italy or back to 5 Nations.

Online
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 20:03

https://file.lavanguardia.com/ext1/img0 ... 5610126557

Image

It's 6 Nations with Italy or back to 5 Nations.


5 Nations? So, who is buying Italy's 14% of the 6N Ltd? For how much? Would Italy sell it?

I don't know why people insist in a situation that is clearly irrealistc. Italy is going nowhere.

The most interesting alternative would be that thre 6N Ltd create a proper official Six Nations B. Under its organization. And with this start a proper investment in those T2 teams and in the whole event. But, as Old Cartellian rugby is not interested in expansion, that won't happen. Meanwhile, T2 people insist in nonsenses like replacing Italy with someonelse or creating a relegation system without a second division that doesn't offer the comercial value needed. Promotion-relegation in the 6N asks for a Top14-Pro D2-like situation, not a Premiership-Championship-like scenario.

Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 20:14

Ainsthrlln has got a point. Such a map is indicative of distribution but not of real numbers given the amount of Argentinian people with EU passports who therefore don't need to register or declare anything.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], victorsra and 9 guests