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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 02:24

Chile looked like a completely different team to what I've seen in the past. Holy cow. Whatever changes they've made are starting to pay off. Great to see.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 02:53

They have a great coach, Pablo Lemoine.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 02:53

Tobar wrote:I noticed in the Argentina - Chile match that some players were coming on near the end that had starter numbers. I guess there were rolling subs?

Yes.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 02:58

Let's see how the boys fare against a sluggish Uruguay next. Unlike Brazil, we feel that we can beat Uruguay any given day, even though the scales have tilted to their side for over a decade now.


Cool, arrogance, the best strategy to start growing :roll:

Come on, man. Argentina was the last team to start training. And both Brazil and Uruguay already beat them. If there is one pretty clear thing is that SLAR tends to level everybody, as we are all pros now.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 04:30

It's a good sign that Chile have improved this quickly. It means we are getting to the stage where South America is becoming competitive. Just have to make sure Paraguay and Colombia aren't left behind. We could be in for a very exciting Americas World Cup campaign for 2023. Even the USA better be on their toes going forward.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 04:36

Chile has the players, they only needed this, a better high performance program. And they have the right coach now.

Colombia and Paraguay have much more to prove.
Last edited by victorsra on Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 04:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 04:37

Is their structure now similar to Uruguay's? Because if it is then it's a winning formula.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 04:41

Now they have high performance academies, but I don't know how they work.

Brazil and Chile have the problem of geography, while Uruguay is centered in just one city. Brazil had many academies and that costed a lot. The cost/benefit wasn't paying off. Now it is all centered in one very good academy, that prepares Olympic athletes in São Paulo. I'm not sure about Chile but it looks like they have more than one academy. Let's see if this will indeed serve them well and be sustainable or if they'll do like Brazil eventualy and center in just one strong academy.

Let's say the work is easier in Uruguay as almost everybody is in Montevideo.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 06:25

Santiago and Viña del Mar have always been the hot bed of rugby in Chile, with other unions to the north and south moee often than not being relegated. All of this has changed with the election of Cristian Rudloff as Chile Rugby president almost three years ago. Part of his plan was to set up high performance centers all over the country, stretched from north to south. The first one of these was obviously set to be in Santiago. A few months ago Concepción in the South was opened up, soon to be followed by Antofagasta in the North and finishing up with Viña del Mar by the coast.

With these centers in place Chile will follow up with Phase 2 which involves having a second SLAR Franchise, a 12 team first division club rugby expansion, and a HPC in Easter Island.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 17:11

Image

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 17:17

Pichulonko wrote:Santiago and Viña del Mar have always been the hot bed of rugby in Chile, with other unions to the north and south moee often than not being relegated. All of this has changed with the election of Cristian Rudloff as Chile Rugby president almost three years ago. Part of his plan was to set up high performance centers all over the country, stretched from north to south. The first one of these was obviously set to be in Santiago. A few months ago Concepción in the South was opened up, soon to be followed by Antofagasta in the North and finishing up with Viña del Mar by the coast.

With these centers in place Chile will follow up with Phase 2 which involves having a second SLAR Franchise, a 12 team first division club rugby expansion, and a HPC in Easter Island.

Exactly the sort of plan Brazil did years ago. Things don't happen so easily. Who is paying?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 18:05

victorsra wrote:Exactly the sort of plan Brazil did years ago. Things don't happen so easily. Who is paying?


It's always been a money issue. The only difference between Chile and Brazil is that Chile managed to stay competitive longer with its old amateurish system, where on the flip side Brazil had to first become professional and then become competitive. In addition Chile always had great youth divisions the problem lied in retaining talent at the senior level once they finished their studies and gradually fell away from playing rugby at a high level. With these HPCs in place we hope a more talented pool of players will remain available for longer, now with all the necessary tools available for further development. Anyhow, Chile Rugby picks up the tab out of their own yearly budget.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 18:21

Exactly, it is a money issue for everybody, that's why I'm saying this. And that's true, the difference between Brazil and Chile is your amateur rugby is better. Better,yes, but not necessarily bigger. Brazilian playing number is probably not behind Chile. Brazil has many clubs playing, around 100 clubs playing official senior 15-a-side competitions (but with poor structures and too much travelling involved, which usualy means less matches than needed for each club to properly develop).

And the biggest problem is that most players start playing at older age. That's why we were able to have a physicaly good team (you don't need players that started at young age for that). We have loads of fit players at amateur level. The question is their hability to see the game, tactics, skills and, most importantly, minutes played, match experience. But this is realy changing, as knowledge about the game is realy developing in our amateur clubs.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 23:17

Pichulonko wrote:Paul Tait from ARN had Argentina as 40 point favorites. Talk about underestimating the opponent!

Those of us who are aware of the hard work and steady process Chile has been making under President Cristian Rudloff, this performance against Argentina does not come as a surprise. There are two high performance centers in the country now with two more to be added within the next year. The pool of select players is now at 60+ and rumour hast it that Chile will be adding another SLAR franchise in 2022. Things can only continue to get better from now.


The result was certainly a surprise regardless of the high performance camps and SLAR. Chile has only won 1 match in the entire history of the ARC so to see them beat any team is frankly a surprise, let alone the best team. Though considering the general inexperience of this Argentina XV team the 40 point favorite is definitely too high.

Let's see how the boys fare against a sluggish Uruguay next. Unlike Brazil, we feel that we can beat Uruguay any given day, even though the scales have tilted to their side for over a decade now.


Apparently you have all the confidence and none of the results. When was the last time Chile actually beat Uruguay?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 00:26

All of the confidence and none of the results, really?? Chile has beaten Uruguay 13 times, the latest one being 22-20 at Estadio Charrúa in 2018.

Get a clue.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 13:49

Most of those victories were between 1950s and 1970s.

After that only 2 wins... 2011 and 2015. In 2018 the match was Chile vs Uruguay XV, it doesn't count for the stats. The only 2018 test match was Chile 15-67 Uruguay (ARC)...

But Selknam beat Peñarol in 2020.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 18:06

That Uruguay XV tag in 2018 is bollocks. They fielded a team as competitive as ever including several players that made their World Cup roster. Truth be told is Uruguay lost at home in a match that should have been considered a test match. Can you imagine Argentina fielding nine Pumas from their upcoming RWC and calling it an Argentina XV team!? Unthinkable.

For the record this was the "Uruguay XV" roster for that match (Those in bold were part of the 2019 RWC): 1 Matías Benitez, 2 Carlos Pombo, 3 Iniciarte, 4 Gonzalo Soto, 5 Diego Magno, 6 Leandro Segredo, 7 Juan Ormaechea (Capitán), 8 Manuel Diana, 9 Tomás Iniciarte, 10 Germán Albanell, 11 Federico Favaro, 12 Agustín Della Corte, 13 Joaquín Parada, 14 Nicolás Freitas, 15 Manuel Blengio, 16 Carlos Arboleya, 17 Guillermo Pujadas, 18 Juan Echeverría, 19 Diego Ayala, 20 Germán Kigel, 21 Matías Risso, 22 Andrés de León, 23 Juan Larrosa


As far as the ARC goes, Chile has been fielding all sorts of alternative teams, specially in 2019. Lemoine went on record then saying that he didn't care about scorelines all that he wanted to do is try as many different players as he could, and did he ever. Chile tried out almost 60 different players during that ARC. Perhaps those teams should have been officially considered a Chile XV given all key absences. That is why those lopsided defeats in 2018 and 2019 don't matter much, at least to me.

All in all Chile beat Uruguay as the Teros were preparing for both the 2015 RWC and 2019 RWC. Don't believe me holler at your boy Chans and he will tell you the same thing.
Last edited by Pichulonko on Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:11

It is true about 2018 Uruguay XV, what I'm saying is it doesn't count to the stats, just like the win against Peñarol. In the other hand Chile doesn't beat Brazil since 2017.... and since 2014 (first time Brazil has beaten Chile), the score is Brazil 5 wins, Chile 3 wins and 1 draw...your excuse is that you basicaly allowed us to win? This means we don't need even to play, Chile will be in RWC 2023? :lol:

Look, if you ever properly read me, I always said Chile had its priority in sevens and that we would see Condores XV results improve soon. But you talk like we should expect 4 years of Chilean dominance, which is (at least) arrogant. Chile has a lot to prove and SLAR brought professionalism equaly for everybody. Chile has a terrific coach, but don't expect Brazil to simply melt during the next years or Uruguay to weaken.

2021-2022 ARC promise to be mad. Canada, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil would be all under professionalism with more or less the same amount of professional players. I do think Brazil is the one that has more to lose, because we struggle in the U20s, but we can have the best fitness work of all (believe me, our Olympic academy is that good).

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ficcp » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:34

Pichulonko :

The fact is that Chile Rugby accepted to participate in ARC (back in 2015) in order not "to lose the train..." but the Union bosses never created the conditions to COMPETE in the tournament. The only win was against Brazil at the time this country was starting the Pro development. The excesive quantity of players used by Chile is a result of the complete lack of coordination (4 HC in 4 years) and the lack of purpose the team had. There were no goals or targets to be reached in Rugby XV, the effort was much concentrated in Rugby VII.
Since the arrival of Lemoine, there are good new winds. There is a goal and a strategic planning to reach it. The current Union Management is improving a lot after years of being focused mostly in Sevens.

IMO there is another important reason for the underperforming in the ARC : it runs during our full summer. I can not expect that amateur Rugby players who are the full year working or studying at an intense level, dedicate their full summer time to Competitive international Rugby. It is different with professional players: they should perform because they are fully dedicated to Rugby.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:35

I don't mean to come off as arrogant. Not by one bit, and if I did I apologize. All I'm saying that the gap between Uruguay, Brazil and Chile is tighter than people think and that stats may show. I have nothing but respect for those two rugby unions, it just upsets me when so-called experts think Chile is a pushover. You know, Paul Tait going on record expecting a 40 point defeat against Argentina XV.

Anyhow, my point was that because Chile has beaten Uruguay several times in the past, including in recent years, the boys feel that they could beat the Teros any time, anywhere, despite the world rankings. The same goes for Uruguay feeling that they can never lose against Brazil no matter how well the Tupis perform simply because they have never lost to them. This is also the very same reason why Brazil playing Chile is always a tight contest. Both teams have won home and away with Brazil getting the better of the Condores in recent years.

A close competitive level between the three is the best it could have happened to SAR, as all three have targeted the 2023 RWC as an achievable goal.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:52

All I'm saying that the gap between Uruguay, Brazil and Chile is tighter than people think and that stats may show.

I do agree with you. But we should always consider Uruguay favorites for 2023. They are stronger than Chile and Brazil in the U20s consistently and in the RWC Qualy they will have their MLR and Europe-based players that make Uruguay stronger. But Chile (more than Brazil) has means to realy level things in the RWC 2027 Qualy. Which doesn't mean Brazil won't be competitive as well. If economic crisis doesn't kill one of us, South American rugby will be crazy in the next years.

Who should realy be concerned is Canada...

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 21:47

Pichulonko wrote: As far as the ARC goes, Chile has been fielding all sorts of alternative teams, specially in 2019. Lemoine went on record then saying that he didn't care about scorelines all that he wanted to do is try as many different players as he could, and did he ever. Chile tried out almost 60 different players during that ARC. Perhaps those teams should have been officially considered a Chile XV given all key absences. That is why those lopsided defeats in 2018 and 2019 don't matter much, at least to me.


Weren’t you the one complaining that Canada was sending developmental squads to the ARC? Why is it now okay for Chile to do that?

All I'm saying that the gap between Uruguay, Brazil and Chile is tighter than people think and that stats may show. I have nothing but respect for those two rugby unions, it just upsets me when so-called experts think Chile is a pushover.


Yes that’s fine, no one likes hearing someone predict that their team will lose by 40. They’ve come a long way in order to almost beat Argentina. But your comment was just odd...like who cares if you think you can beat Uruguay if the results are much more in their favor over the past few years? And specifically throwing a dig at Brazil for some reason.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 22:00

ficcp wrote:Pichulonko :

The fact is that Chile Rugby accepted to participate in ARC (back in 2015) in order not "to lose the train..." but the Union bosses never created the conditions to COMPETE in the tournament. The only win was against Brazil at the time this country was starting the Pro development. The excesive quantity of players used by Chile is a result of the complete lack of coordination (4 HC in 4 years) and the lack of purpose the team had. There were no goals or targets to be reached in Rugby XV, the effort was much concentrated in Rugby VII.
Since the arrival of Lemoine, there are good new winds. There is a goal and a strategic planning to reach it. The current Union Management is improving a lot after years of being focused mostly in Sevens.

IMO there is another important reason for the underperforming in the ARC : it runs during our full summer. I can not expect that amateur Rugby players who are the full year working or studying at an intense level, dedicate their full summer time to Competitive international Rugby. It is different with professional players: they should perform because they are fully dedicated to Rugby.


Sevens gets a nice sum in funding from the government due to it being an Olympic sport. It also is less grueling physically so the group of 12 can fit it into their schedules better than Rugby XV.

If Chile Rugby were to duplicate their budget we would then see much better results. With that said I like Rudolff's marketing strategy for this current cycle. He wants sponsors to pay a bigger share and is holding out on placing a sponsor on the team jersey until someone meets the monetary requirements. The Club Condores money can only take you so far.

Also worth mentioning is that the current board of directors has managed to use the Estadio Nacional facilities at a very little cost, among other perks.

I'm excited on what 2021 can bring and hope we will get over the covid 19 pandemic soon.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 22:36

The experience using Estadio Nacional is very cool. We had the same with Pacaembu and Morumbi. But our conclusion is that it only worths if we are talking about a match that would attract at least 25% of the capacity. Less than this means you are creating a not cool atmosphere with more costs than necessary. In other words, you need a good boutique stadium option. If you'll only attract like 5.000 supporters, you need only a 10k-seats stadium. That's Brazil's major problem now (and now more than ever as Pacaembu will close until 2023 to have renovations). Uruguay and Paraguay have those small good options.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 20 Oct 2020, 00:06

Most of the sports venues in Chile are owned by the local governments and are available for anyone to use. From small 5k capacity to 12k, 18k and as large as 50k in capacity as is the case with Estadio Nacional. I agree with you that this last one is much bigger than it needs to be but me being content with its use is due to other reasons. It has a world class quality pitch of natural grass, surrounding facilities are top notch for players, media and fans alike. But perhaps the best of all is that it has a Metro station within the park grounds that facilitates access to games to be reached from anywhere in the city due to the vast connectivity of our subway network.

Let me point out that Chile has hosted test matches outside of Santiago, most recently Romania and Spain in Valparaíso and the small town of Curicó, respectively.

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